Is my boiler wired right?

[rewireIT]

Just looking at my boiler wiring out of interest, and just wondering if it's wired correctly.

So perma lives, neutrals and earths in the right place, but i can't figure out the switch lives to the controller.

If i follow the circuit it seems like the earth of the 4 core is acting as some sort of live to the controller even though the perma live is already there. If i volt stick it, the earth is live at both ends at all times, the black is showing 50v amperage only sometimes and then dead others.

From the wiring diagram i would have assumed the 4 core would go to the switch as L N E and the black would act as the sole switch wire.

What am i missing?

(Ps thanks for your help - i'm trying to get more into the domestic side of stuff having grown sick of site work so this is my first foray into stuff like boilers.)

PPS the controller is not a stat, it's just on/off. Timer/temp etc is built onto the boiler.

 

[pirate]

Just a wee comment here...I have the Fluke T150 and if you probe with the one probe only it warns you of voltage being present, albeit it can't display what that voltage is. So it acts like a non-contact tester, except you have to make contact! Basically it's just a warning.

 

[DPG]

Just a wee comment here...I have the Fluke T150 and if you probe with the one probe only it warns you of voltage being present, albeit it can't display what that voltage is. So it acts like a non-contact tester, except you have to make contact! Basically it's just a warning.

Same as the Kewtech 2 probe tester. I'm never sure it's a good feature - I wonder how many people use it for proving safe isolation.

 

[pirate]

That's a fair point, @DPG
However, it's maybe handy to have the feature as an extra check, just in case!

 

[oscar21]

Looks like Ive been short changed as there only about 600 in my copy!

Meant to put 600

 

[oscar21]

Exactly this. An integral part of the job.

No its being a nerd, most of the modern changes are ludicrous and we shouldn't need to know about them in a modern world. Saying that using the earth to carry current in a multi core flex is dangerous must be saying it was always dangerous, so how come they used to allow it? and if its not dangerous what does it matter whether I know about it or not.

Anyway I have done an update course and nearly all of the questions were irrelevant waffle, how long can a gangplank be for eg or what sort of ship needs what sort of cable or whatever it was. The new regulations are going nuts on the amount of things they keep altering, take sockets from a bath for eg, was 3M, everyone knew it was 3M then all of a sudden its 2.5M, no sense whatsoever. Now we don't even need to know the RCD x5 current yet it was vital a couple of years ago and if any old timer spark working from say the 15th or even 16 edition read the modern regs they would say they were insane.

You must be able to see they keep changing everything to flog us new books, that it. Its nothing to do with safety or efficiency.

 

[loz2754]

Of course there is an element of commercial gain behind many of the technological advances being made available in the electrical world, even greed perhaps.
But to argue that there is no improvement in safety from one edition to the next is ludicrous. It's not always obvious why a particular regulation or group of regulations has been modified, introduced, or sometimes removed, there are good reasons behind such changes.

 

[rewireIT]

^ i'm a bit with both of you on this one.

There are differences between countries in regs which both argue that they are for safety but both cannot be right at the same time. Electricity is electricity no matter location or colour jacket it has on.

It's the argument i make when someone says i'm being dangerous for driving at 80mph on an empty motorway. It's 'dangerous' here but completely acceptable in Germany. So are the German law makers playing with the lives of motorists? No. It's just a rule difference.

Same thing - plastic boards are A-OK in Europe but not here, even though they were.

That said, it doesn't take a lot to be up to date with what is currently required regs-wise.

 

[brianmoooore]

It could be argued that knowing the number of each and every reg off by heart is being a nerd, but knowing the content is essential to be able to install and certify your own work as satisfactory.
TBH, it was only when the reg regarding the use of yellow/green in flexes was changed that I discovered it hadn't been allowed before.

 

[davesparks]

No its being a nerd, most of the modern changes are ludicrous and we shouldn't need to know about them in a modern world.

Which changes are ludicrous? Why shouldn't we need to know about changes to the regulations?

The regulations change as our knowledge, understanding and technology changes. The regulations have to keep up with the latest changes to technology and those changes are coming thick and fast so the regulations have to keep up.

Saying that using the earth to carry current in a multi core flex is dangerous must be saying it was always dangerous, so how come they used to allow it? and if its not dangerous what does it matter whether I know about it or not.

Nobody has said it is dangerous, the regulations have gone back to prohibiting it.

take sockets from a bath for eg, was 3M, everyone knew it was 3M then all of a sudden its 2.5M, no sense whatsoever.

This is likely a result of the slow process of moving towards international harmonisation of electrical standards.

Now we don't even need to know the RCD x5 current yet it was vital a couple of years ago

I assume you mean tripping time, not current?
We can still do the test, the change is just simplifying the test results sheet.

and if any old timer spark working from say the 15th or even 16 edition read the modern regs they would say they were insane.

You must be able to see they keep changing everything to flog us new books, that it. Its nothing to do with safety or efficiency.

If you don't like it then do a different job.

 

[oscar21]

^^Davesparks

The difference is, you still have faith. Some people love rules, they love complying with everything anyone tells them to do because they think they are doing for the greater good and they must do as they are told because a superior person told them to. I'll bet you followed every lockdown rule going when the pandemic struck.

People like me on the other hand think that as long as you don't do any harm to anyone, murder them, rob them etc then nothing else really matters too much, I see everyone else as equals not my superiors. Take the wiring to the boiler scenario, I need to wire a thermostat receiver, its made of plastic and only needs three wires so I use a bit of 3 core flex and sleeve the earth up with brown. So what if the regs don't allow it, you are free human being and are capable all by yourself to make a decision whether it might be safe or not, so what if it breaches a technical rule in the £90 book.

What experience has taught me is no-one else is interested either, you could do the best job in the world for someone, you could go out of your way and do things like put ferules on the end of every termination, make an artwork of all the cable you clip, fit the most expensive stuff going and whilst you are doing the job the client will treat you like family but when it comes time to price the next job for him if you are £500 dearer than a complete stranger, even on a £10k job they will get it and not you, everything you have done would have been a waste of time.

As for getting another job just because I dont behave like a bod and follow every single rule to the letter, no chance, all my work is safe and no-one will ever come to any danger, there are a load of people out there doing way worse jobs than me. That last job I posted on the trade pictures one was an abomination, done by someone in NICEIC apparently who makes his money by signing several jobs off every day for other people at £100 a pop so I'm told. And the money is too good.

 

[littlespark]

my 2 cents before the fallout....

Green and yellow is a cpc.... circuit protective conductor.... it protects the circuit.
Heating controls, youve got unarmoured flexible cables crossing between joint boxes and valves, or thermostats or whatever....
Something happens and this flex gets struck with a pointy metal object. metal objects now shorting between a live cable and what should be a cpc...
Nothing happens. Circuit breaker doesnt trip, metal object now live.

Would you use the cpc as a live cable in a lighting circuit? Plastic switch, plastic box? No, i dont think so.

Using the cpc as a live cable in heating controls should never be allowed... identified or not. And it just reeks of a plumber wiring it up, not a competent electrician.

 

[oscar21]

my 2 cents before the fallout....

Green and yellow is a cpc.... circuit protective conductor.... it protects the circuit.
Heating controls, youve got unarmoured flexible cables crossing between joint boxes and valves, or thermostats or whatever....
Something happens and this flex gets struck with a pointy metal object. metal objects now shorting between a live cable and what should be a cpc...
Nothing happens. Circuit breaker doesnt trip, metal object now live.

Would you use the cpc as a live cable in a lighting circuit? Plastic switch, plastic box? No, i dont think so.

Using the cpc as a live cable in heating controls should never be allowed... identified or not. And it just reeks of a plumber wiring it up, not a competent electrician.

If it had never been allowed I could understand the reasoning but not that long ago you could do exactly that, so if its as dangerous as you say why was it ever allowed. As for your scenario it could just as easily happen to the brown or blue wire in the cable, we sleeve blue wires up all the time with brown cable, we sleeve black with brown and grey with blue, all sorts of colour changes going on there but the copper and insulation thickness are exactly the same physics wise, the only difference is the colour of the covering, if someone is going to get a shock after something goes wrong, the angry pixies dont care one bit what colour a cable originally is.

 

[oscar21]

Also my original point wasn't whether we can use the cpc as a live or not it was about the tonnes of regs changes that are happening all the time and unless you are a bookworm or enjoy watching nerds on youtube with receding hairlines quoting hours and hours of regs in a monotonous voice instead of being down the pub or out for a drive or something then most of them will pass you by until you chance upon them by accident.

Alternatively you could pay a hundreds if not thousands every year for every update course going, I believe they have courses for every part of the building regs nowadays. After all whats the point in doing the electrical regs to the letter if you haven't got a clue about the other 15 parts of the buildings regs.

 

[rewireIT]

^ some good points but i look at it like what would Barry Homeowner do?

I know people aren't supposed to look inside their appliances or circuits, but they do. What happens when the boiler trips out and they take the cover off and see yellow and green and just assume it's earth?

It takes no extra effort and simply putting in 5core in my boiler situation to ensure this doesn't happen. Even if it's a 1 in a million chance of someone not getting injured by it it's worth the extra 50p for the right cable, no?

 

[DPG]

Also my original point wasn't whether we can use the cpc as a live or not it was about the tonnes of regs changes that are happening all the time and unless you are a bookworm or enjoy watching nerds on youtube with receding hairlines quoting hours and hours of regs in a monotonous voice instead of being down the pub or out for a drive or something then most of them will pass you by until you chance upon them by accident.

Alternatively you could pay a hundreds if not thousands every year for every update course going, I believe they have courses for every part of the building regs nowadays. After all whats the point in doing the electrical regs to the letter if you haven't got a clue about the other 15 parts of the buildings regs.

All you need to do is read the updates/amendments when they come out. If you can't put that bit of effort in then it's a poor show.

And how does it cost thousands of pounds every year?