Is this installation considered acceptable today? (1-ring including oven and everything else)

[Iain Kay]

Looking for some advice on what I've discovered is the electrics situation in my rental property.

I'll note that before I moved in here I made the Letting agents (LA) more than aware I use an absolute -----ton of power. I told them I can and will be pulling 2,000-4,000 kWh a quarter (with gas hob and heating). No concerns raised.

When I moved in here it looked promising. CU had no spare slots, plenty of MCBs and RCD protection in place. Nice one I thought, 4x 32A MCBs, good chance we've got a couple of rings and kitchen will be on its own. As it turns out, nope.

I haven't removed the cover, so I have not been able to confirm what connections we have inside the CU but I can confirm my findings in terms of what the resulting circuits are.

1) 16A - Does nothing
2) 16A - Radial to water heater switch, on to a switch in the living room that's got a single GU10 lamp installed in a unit coming from it. (Water heater removed some time ago)
3) 6A - Smoke alarms [Issue: One not receiving mains power but clearly wired into the trunking containing this circuit so should be]
4) 6A - Lights (Kitchen, Bathroom, Master Bedroom)
5) 6A - Lights (Lounge, Hallway, Second bedroom)

So far so good, this looks great, other than the oddity of feeding the GU10 lamp from the previously installed radial, but makes sense as this terminates inside the bottom of the unit containing the GU10 so just laziness prevails.

6) 32A - Does nothing
7) 32A - Does nothing
8) 32A - ALL sockets (Lounge, hallway, kitchen, oven, boiler, master bedroom, second bedroom)
9) 32A - Shower
10) 40A - Does nothing

Not so good. We have a single 32A ring covering everything including the bloody oven, washing machine, tumble dryer and the rest of the gaff on top!

Why the hell install all of those 32A MCBs to do sweet F all?

I've confirmed this is definitely the case by killing off the circuits in almost every possible order and I can see that nothing else is getting a complete circuit to these circuits enabling power to flow.


Now for the big question.

I did some maths here and it looks like this is seriously overloaded pretty much any time we're using the kitchen pretty heavily (most nights...).

A typical evening in the house consists of washing and drying lasting 3-4 hours, concurrently (4.6kW total), whilst over the course of this the oven will be put on (7.8kW total) and often a hair dryer (8.8kW total) and kettle (11.8kW total) too. Admittedly the last two are far shorter use, but this is seriously over the rating for this circuit and I don't feel it's over the top usage of a house.

Let's add up purely the kitchen during a typical wash and prepare meal:
2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

Not all of this will be on all the time but lets assume this is peak before taking into account any of the rest of the property.

11,455W or 11.45kW best case, 11.8kW worst case. Now my 32A circuit should not be over 7.2kWh and probably not over 5.76kW for extended periods.

Then we get to two HDR tellys on pretty much all the time, set top boxes, server, multiple PCs with multiple monitors connected, PoE Switches and networking gear, smart home gear and when I am using it I often have a lab set up with multiple PCs which is where we get to the 4kW/quarter.

Right now, I'm concerned that before we even cover the devices used throughout the house, the kitchen alone (well counting the hall cupboard with tumble dryer) is pulling 159% - 164% of the rated load on this circuit.


I know that the best practise for a single ring can be based upon property size, not certain of the specs here though.

I'm unsure of the sq footage of the entire property but I'd say it isn't particularly small. We're looking at 165 sq feet in the master bedroom alone.

Should I be raising this with the LA and pushing to get this sorted out so that at very least the oven is moved to its own radial circuit and preferably get the rest of the kitchen moved over to its own ring too?

Would you suggest it's worth myself looking at spurring off this 16A radial to get an extra couple of sockets, capable of at least 13A, running in the living room that won't be on this single ring?

The 32A to the shower is currently running into the hall cupboard where there is an isolator switch. The sockets in there are on the main ring and contain my comms cabinet and the tumble dryer. The comms cabinet won't use a huge amount, although does have quite a few devices and PoE switch providing power to WiFi, VoIP phones and some smart home devices. Is there anything I could do to take power off this? Either going with a fused spur or a Garage CU that then splits into the shower and extra sockets? (I know this will require notification and a competent installer doing it).


Any thoughts from the pros would be greatly appreciated here as I'm not sure if it would be considered enough of a problem to have a LA take action, however, way I see it I'm constantly stressing this system beyond what it was intended for with no idea how the wiring quality in the walls is, so it's a concern, whether or not the LA will do anything or not I'm not sure and I don't want to raise it without getting some professional opinions.

 

[davesparks]

Let's add up purely the kitchen during a typical wash and prepare meal:
2,550W - 3,000W - Kettle
900W - Toaster
80W - Fridge
125W - Boiler
2,200W - Washing Machine
2,400W - Tumble dryer
3,200W - Oven

Not all of this will be on all the time but lets assume this is peak before taking into account any of the rest of the property.

11,455W or 11.45kW best case, 11.8kW worst case. Now my 32A circuit should not be over 7.2kWh and probably not over 5.76kW for extended periods.

Then we get to two HDR tellys on pretty much all the time, set top boxes, server, multiple PCs with multiple monitors connected, PoE Switches and networking gear, smart home gear and when I am using it I often have a lab set up with multiple PCs which is where we get to the 4kW/quarter.

Should I be raising this with the LA and pushing to get this sorted out so that at very least the oven is moved to its own radial circuit and preferably get the rest of the kitchen moved over to its own ring too?

Would you suggest it's worth myself looking at spurring off this 16A radial to get an extra couple of sockets, capable of at least 13A, running in the living room that won't be on this single ring?

The 32A to the shower is currently running into the hall cupboard where there is an isolator switch. The sockets in there are on the main ring and contain my comms cabinet and the tumble dryer. The comms cabinet won't use a huge amount, although does have quite a few devices and PoE switch providing power to WiFi, VoIP phones and some smart home devices.

Any thoughts from the pros would be greatly appreciated here as I'm not sure if it would be considered enough of a problem to have a LA take action, however, way I see it I'm constantly stressing this system beyond what it was intended for with no idea how the wiring quality in the walls is,

The obvious answer here is to not start you washing, drying, oven and kettle all at the same time, stagger the starting of these and diversity will come in to effect.
If you are switching everything on simultaneously then I would say it seems you are deliberately trying to force an issue.
What type of oven is it? I don’t think I’ve seen one yet where all elements can be switched on simultaneously, most at least have a separate grill element which cannot be ok at the same time as the oven element.

I don’t see any particular issue to raise with your Lettings agent, your landlord is not obliged to provide an electrical installation to suit your personal requirements, they only have to ensure that the installation is safe.

Where do your figures of 7.2kW and 5.76kW for a ring circuit come from? By my calculation 32A 7.68kW

Is all of this IT equipment purely for home (non-business) use? If any of it is for business use then you may not want to involve the LA as such use of the property is normally not allowed in a residential letting.

I would strongly advise against making any alteration to the installation yourself, or having any alteration made without written permission from your landlord.
Having done work for lettings agents in the past I have occasionally removed such alterations at the tenants expense.


If you are ‘stressing the system’ as you put it then it is likely that you are the one at fault here as your tenancy contract will require you to take all reasonable steps to prevent damage to the property.

 

[Iain Kay]

Thanks for all the posts everybody.

I'll try to get through answering all of them.

I'm a bit dubious about these kinds of threads ..... The op has chosen to conceal all their details ..... What are they hiding,?

First of all to cover who I am, I'm not a certified spark, so I have no qualification details to note. I have posted a welcome thread where I detail my level of experience a bit, though.

I'm 30 years old. I'm not certified but I've worked with power all my life, I've taught myself a little theory and I've run circuits alongside sparks because I've always been so interested about how we get from making power to the home to the device.

So, right now I'm somewhere between a DIYer and a trainee. Once I feel I have most of the theory down self taught I'm going to try and go for my level 2 cert and go from there.

Have a few family friends that are sparks, so I'm sure I can get some more hands on experience alongside qual'd pros too.

 

[Iain Kay]

QUOTE="mhar, post: 1434891, member: 96119"]MCBs are what we know as over current protective devices. Have any of your ocpds ever tripped indicating that your demand is too much for the circuit?[/QUOTE]

My MCBs are not tripping regularly, a few times since moving in, presumably because they're Type B so they'll take 3-5 times the current to trip?

I cannot, however, turn them the ring off and back on. Sparks and flips straight off.

I have to power down PC equipment and fire each device up individually. Right bloody pain and worrying.

 

[Iain Kay]

I am being forced to grow only 5 cannabis plants due to the Letting agents (LA) only installing one ring. How is this fair? My profit is getting decimated all because the LA have left spare ways in my consumer unit. I was very clear with the LA I would be growing many more than 5 plants but they just couldn't care less. Not happy with this at all

LOL. Perhaps at a silly little age 18 year old me, but not with my 10 YO daughter living here with me.

 

[Iain Kay]

Hum ............... its very often somebody who deliberately wants to hide something ...........

The average DIYer doesn't have the knowledge this person appears to have ....................

I'm not trying to hide anything guys, but you're right the average DIYer won't have picked up their level 2 books and been reading over them (slowly) for the past 4 months or so I'd imagine.

 

[Iain Kay]

Litlespark I cannot condone lying. This is going to cost the landlord money to send an electrician out to look for a fault that doesn't exist. It's unfair on landlord when the installation may be perfectly acceptable in regards to electrical safety.

I'm too honest for this, which is why I posted this up.

I don't want to lie to my LA but I do want to know if this should be considered unsafe.

Basically, as it stands, I told the landlord I'd be moving in and running a lot of kit. I'm happy to demonstrate the load of this with any electrician or LA, so it's nothing illegal lol and nothing to hide.

I just want to know if they're going to do this, or if I'm going to have to offer to pay them to do it.

I've never had a 2-bed flat with a single ring before either. Typical arrangement is 2-rings per flat and usually either side will be on the ring, sometimes alternate rooms which I found really handy when things tripped and you could still get a good plug in lamp from a nearby outlet!

 

[Iain Kay]

How old is the property ?

How old is the electrical installation?

This I'm not sure regarding building/wiring dates.

I know that it has red and black wiring in the ceiling roses as I had to change one of them when my daughters bunk bed was too high so we got a more compact one to hold an uplighter shade.

 

[Iain Kay]

So...up in the morning on with the kettle and some toast to be sure. In with the washing and on with the tumble dryer and in with the turkey while having a shower.
Kettle 3 mins.
Toaster 3 mins.
Washing machine, does it feed from the boiler? i.e. one cold feed or hot and cold feed?
Tumble dryer-No clothes line? anyway is there a prodigious amount of washing clothes to do? Get economy tariff and wash on a timer stagger the loads between night and day.
Oven, cut down on the roasts? perhaps roast the Turkey after the washathon?
Anyway I don't think any landlord or LA will respond or re-wire the property due to your unusual energy usage patterns. And at that I imagine in reality nothing will happen with all due respect, you are reacting to a paper tiger you made constructed from figures that you have not tempered in contrast with reality.

That's a fair enough point. With regards to the kitchen load, yeah, that could be fairly sporadic and not constant load. Maybe not a huge concern.

That's not the case with PCs in a lab deliberately ramped up to 100% usage though, that's always going to pull whatever the hardware demands and that'll run till I stop it.

My issue is that I do have a fairly large load on the ring throughout the house at any one time, plus all of that on the top.

Never seen anything like this. I'm used to oven/kitchen/2-rings for house/shower/lights/lights 2.

 

[Iain Kay]

Hi - my advice too is - use and enjoy your new home. In my humble opinion the shower must be separate, and it is. The rest is really up to loading. If it causes you trouble with MCB tripping or you see/smell smoke then obviously something's not right.

Will bear this in mind and try to worry somewhat less, wait and see when/if the MCB starts tripping regularly.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Having everything on one circuit is a lot more common than is perhaps ideal, Was in a 2 bed house surveying for a rewire recently. It had 3 circuits. one sockets, one lights and one for the oven. Had an redundant mcb for the immersion heater that had been taken out and a combi boiler in its place fed from the ring.
Not the best way of doing things but was installed like that when built. it all comes down to load and whats connected.

 

[Iain Kay]

The obvious answer here is to not start you washing, drying, oven and kettle all at the same time, stagger the starting of these and diversity will come in to effect.
If you are switching everything on simultaneously then I would say it seems you are deliberately trying to force an issue.
What type of oven is it? I don’t think I’ve seen one yet where all elements can be switched on simultaneously, most at least have a separate grill element which cannot be ok at the same time as the oven element.

I don’t see any particular issue to raise with your Lettings agent, your landlord is not obliged to provide an electrical installation to suit your personal requirements, they only have to ensure that the installation is safe.

Where do your figures of 7.2kW and 5.76kW for a ring circuit come from? By my calculation 32A 7.68kW

Is all of this IT equipment purely for home (non-business) use? If any of it is for business use then you may not want to involve the LA as such use of the property is normally not allowed in a residential letting.

I would strongly advise against making any alteration to the installation yourself, or having any alteration made without written permission from your landlord.
Having done work for lettings agents in the past I have occasionally removed such alterations at the tenants expense.


If you are ‘stressing the system’ as you put it then it is likely that you are the one at fault here as your tenancy contract will require you to take all reasonable steps to prevent damage to the property.

To be fair, I used an online calculator to reach that sum based upon the 32A, 230V, AC single phase and power factor of 1.0. In my defense it was 1.30am.

Then subtracted 20% for a constant load running over the wiring.

 

[Iain Kay]

Did you get any electrical certificates from the letting agency, when you took over the house?

You know, I thought I did but I've looked over all of the paperwork and it's just gas.

I will get in touch with them on this point.

 

[Darkwood]

My MCBs are not tripping regularly, a few times since moving in, presumably because they're Type B so they'll take 3-5 times the current to trip?


I think you need to read up on the characteristics of protective devices, the type of a device as in an MCB is the inrush allowance so a 10amp mcb with a 3-5times tripping curve will allow for a device to have an inrush <30amps without tripping. Because it has a varied range IE 3 - 5x rating then inrushes of between 30-50amps may periodically trip the mcb. Inrushes exceeding 5 x rating will trip the mcb everytime.

 

[Iain Kay]

Having everything on one circuit is a lot more common than is perhaps ideal, Was in a 2 bed house surveying for a rewire recently. It had 3 circuits. one sockets, one lights and one for the oven. Had an redundant mcb for the immersion heater that had been taken out and a combi boiler in its place fed from the ring.
Not the best way of doing things but was installed like that when built. it all comes down to load and whats connected.

I suppose this may be part of the issue.

If they're doing electrical testing whilst this flat is vacant then it's unfurnished, there's absolutely no load except the kitchen.

The tumble dryer is my addition that I've taken with me through the past few properties so I'm not sure if it would ever have been tested in any similar configuration with an actual load throughout the house like a modern family would have.

 

[The Ghost]

My Mother used to use the iron on lighting flex from a bayonet cap holder from the ceiling (i.e. take the bulb out and plug the iron in) she used to iron for about three hours, guess what?...nothing happened ever except the ironing.