It's getting worse

[sean_ork]

Not sure you can use BBC, News and balance in the same sentence!

That's a thread for the Guardian readers forum, or maybe they just chat about PLCs and 3 day electricians there as well

 

[Midwest]

Perhaps for some balance, story from my area; Man stabbed to death in Abingdon Poundland store - BBC News

 

[sean_ork]

Perhaps for some balance, story from my area; Man stabbed to death in Abingdon Poundland store - BBC News

I wonder how many have jumped to the conclusion that this another ISIS or Syria related event ?

 

[Midwest]

Just imagine a world without social media, internet, 24hr news channels.The price we pay for freedom of information. ''Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend'' (Mrs MT 1981).

 

[sean_ork]

Just imagine a world without social media, internet, 24hr news channels.The price we pay for freedom of information. ''Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend'' (Mrs MT 1981).

starve them of food as well

 

[Midwest]

I wonder how many have jumped to the conclusion that this another ISIS or Syria related event ?

Quite frankly, I think they are all mad. What sane person could do such things.

 

[sean_ork]

Leytonstone Tube stabbing accused Muhaydin Mire's family contacted police three weeks before attack over 'mental health concerns' | Crime | News | The Independent

 

[Englishman]

I wonder how many have jumped to the conclusion that this another ISIS or Syria related event ?

We'll probably none because, unlike the Leytonstone piece of scum, that murderer didn't shout out "this is for Syria" when he stabbed the poor bloke.

 

[Diddy]

Thoughts on is it time to arm most/all of the police ?
No.
If you want reasons just quote some of the many legitimate reasons which have been deemed to be nothing to do with the thread.
Does it work in other countries who isis or whoever have a gripe with ? Nope - plenty of evidence that armed ordinary police have no effect in situations where lone attackers or very small off radar groups get together and launch an attack - the police just can't cope weather it is here or anywhere else. Even countries who arm all their police - they all as far as I can see cordon off and contain while the "specialist" teams arrive. In the UK in the past that job has been SAS and or armed response units. Ordinary police can't be reliably trained up to the required skill level and then just left to it.....
What should we do - well spending money on beefing up things like intelligence officers, Beef up our SAS and have units spread around the country, Employ and train more armed response units so that each force has an on call service if deemed needed.

Other than that - cut off the supply chain - that would have much more effect than fighting them on the streets. Starve them of cash and arms. I like the idea of a reward for successful prosecution of say hate preachers or potential terror group leaders from within the community. When identified the targets could be watched super closely and real evidence and co-conspirators could be swooped up and then the reward paid....if evidence is dud - then the target need never know anything ever happened.

So yes more security - no to armed police.

 

[YoungScud]

This is the problem with the loony left.

Whenever anything is mentioned about Muslim terrorism, they bang on about white murderers, or food banks, or some other rubbish. And just completely ignore the actual subject that is being discussed.

And Sean, NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT ANY OF THAT SO NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS ON THOSE MATTERS.

If you want to discuss your nonsense, start a thread about it and discuss it in there.

Run! It's the forum police! He might be armed!

Look, I've sat and read just about every post in this thread. We have an OP irate at what he sees as Sean hijacking his original post, when in actual fact, it's that post which has hijacked the truth of the Leytonstone stabbings.

This incident had nothing to do with ISIS or Islamic (or for that matter, any other kind) of terrorism. It's a nut job, armed with a kitchen implement, who happened to shout about something he'd read in the news. His family tried to warn the authorities about him, but nothing was done. Well, we've tried arming our police. Ask the family of Jean Charles de Menezes how that worked out. At our airports, we have coppers armed with Heckler & Kock 9mm machine guns capable of firing 3,000 rounds per minute. Bet that makes you feel safe, at least until you stop and think about that rate of fire. In 2003, Blair sent tanks, yes, tanks, to Heathrow to support a security operation after intelligence (oxymoron?) suggested a terrorist threat. What were they going to do when a couple of nutters opened up with Kalashnikoves? I shudder to think.

So, as you've probably gathered, I think arming the police even further is a terrible idea, given the history of armed police, particularly the Met and Northern Ireland. Instead, and this is what we seem unable to contemplate, we should start to think about the root causes and our role in bringing some of this on ourselves. I hold no special hope that this will happen, but one can dream.

 

[Midwest]

.

I don't disagree with you, that people can jump to conclusions and some people treat every shocking incident likes these as some sort of terrorist incident, instead of just one lone wolf with a disturbed mind. But then that's just normal fear, and why terrorists act in the way they do.

And I disagree with the routine arming of all police officers. But we should continuing arming specialist firearms officers and consider altering our tatics to suit the threat.

An H&P MP5, as used by some UK forces, has a cyclic rate of about 650 per m, fully automatic. Most UK police are only allowed by the HO to use semi-automatic, i.e. pull the trigger to fire a round. The 2003 security incident, was from intelligence of a threat of terrorist action, to down a civilian airliner with a surface to air missile, an attempt was made at Baghdad airport that year.

UK police, like most European police forces, have tactics in place to deal with active shooters, as can be seen by the recent incidents in France. Whilst the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes was abysmal, I think our security forces should congratulated, thusfar, of foiling similar terrorist incidents.

 

[sean_ork]

I think our security forces should congratulated, thusfar, of foiling similar terrorist incidents.

Yes we keep hearing about the threats that have been foiled, finally the media facing folks have talked to each other and appeared to have aggread a number, it was 7 yesterday - 3 weeks ago folks were giving media briefings quoting figures ranging from 3 to 35 attacks foiled - at least they are all now singing off the same sheet

Personally I beleive they invent these numbers to suit their own motives.

 

[telectrix]

regarding arming police. some police officers can't be trusted with a catapult, but highly trained armed response units are essential and, if necessary, the numbers should be increased to cope with the threats of today. care must be taken not to use a tony blair knee-jerk reaction though. a balance between dealing with terrorist threats and possible innocents being shot by police accidentally needs to be achieved.

 

[YoungScud]

I don't disagree with you, that people can jump to conclusions and some people treat every shocking incident likes these as some sort of terrorist incident, instead of just one lone wolf with a disturbed mind. But then that's just normal fear, and why terrorists act in the way they do.

And I disagree with the routine arming of all police officers. But we should continuing arming specialist firearms officers and consider altering our tatics to suit the threat.

An H&P MP5, as used by some UK forces, has a cyclic rate of about 650 per m, fully automatic. Most UK police are only allowed by the HO to use semi-automatic, i.e. pull the trigger to fire a round. The 2003 security incident, was from intelligence of a threat of terrorist action, to down a civilian airliner with a surface to air missile, an attempt was made at Baghdad airport that year.

UK police, like most European police forces, have tactics in place to deal with active shooters, as can be seen by the recent incidents in France. Whilst the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes was abysmal, I think our security forces should congratulated, thusfar, of foiling similar terrorist incidents.

There's a great deal of sense in what you say. I bow to your expertise on the MP5. I'd never had the semi-auto only option explained to me. However, I can only repeat the question as to what the tanks were actually intended to do, given that they were actually on the road outside one of the terminals. The likelihood of a terrorist firing a shoulder held weapon at an aeroplane from that position unchallenged would seem pretty slim.

As for de Menezes, the catalogue of errors leading to his death appalled me almost as much as a coroner instructing a jury that they may not return a verdict of unlawful death. Furnished with the facts of the case, surely that should have been their remit. That aside, it's worth considering that a man suspected of being an Arab terrorist, armed with a rucksack bomb, was allowed to get on two different buses and finally enter a Tube train before being wrestled to the ground and effectively assassinated. That did nothing to make me feel any easier about my own personal security.

 

[Midwest]

There's a great deal of sense in what you say. I bow to your expertise on the MP5. I'd never had the semi-auto only option explained to me. However, I can only repeat the question as to what the tanks were actually intended to do, given that they were actually on the road outside one of the terminals. The likelihood of a terrorist firing a shoulder held weapon at an aeroplane from that position unchallenged would seem pretty slim.

As for de Menezes, the catalogue of errors leading to his death appalled me almost as much as a coroner instructing a jury that they may not return a verdict of unlawful death. Furnished with the facts of the case, surely that should have been their remit. That aside, it's worth considering that a man suspected of being an Arab terrorist, armed with a rucksack bomb, was allowed to get on two different buses and finally enter a Tube train before being wrestled to the ground and effectively assassinated. That did nothing to make me feel any easier about my own personal security.

Tanks, nope nor do I. Surface to air missiles, tend to work like that. But you don't take a knife to a gun fight. I think even the 'tanks' deployed, would of been useless against anti-tank missiles.

Mr Menezes tragic death, took place 2 weeks after the 7/7 bombings, when 52 people were murdered, and the police got it wrong, very wrong. But this is real life, it's not a Hollywood movie and the police are human and make mistakes. Sadly, someone lost their life because of that.