Kitchen sockets not working anymore

[Colin47]

No because one leg of what the once was ring final will still be connected to the socket outlets.

Yes and no.
Really speaking, if there are still 2 legs in the consumer unit then it has to be established that both are feeding socket outlets, If only one leg is then the other one should be disconnected.
If they both still feed socket outlets/ appliances, then it needs to established that it's terminated properly.

It maybe not easily be possible to re-establish the ring final so depending on how many sockets/appliances are on each leg and if you have a spare way 2×20 amp rcbos would be the way to go.

Thanks. I think he mentioned only one 20amp rcbo is required to downrate the 32a currently used in the kitchen circuit breaker. I will check with him again on the two wires behind the wall although when he came around orginally he used a voltage tester to confirm no live wires behind the wall. Theres only two wall sockets in the bedroom upstairs Im not sure whether he could just open one of the sockets and just disconnect the wires that go downstairs in the kitchen for those two wires behind the wall that are not live and believed to be terminated.

 

[littlespark]

Did you not say the kitchen sockets are on their own circuit? The upstairs bedroom will be different if that’s the case.

A “no contact” voltage tester is not a reliable indicator of the presence, or lack of, voltage on a cable.


We are all guessing here as to what has happened and how it can be fixed, and can only really give possible suggestions.

You may need some investigating behind units and walls to find the real cause.

 

[DefyG]

if you have a spare way 2×20 amp rcbos would be the way to go.

Some manufacturers make a 25A breaker which may be preferred if several appliances on same radial circuit and give a little more security than overloading a 20A!

 

[westward10]

To verify if this is two radials or an open ring final really isn't difficult something an electrician should be able to establish.

 

[Colin47]

Did you not say the kitchen sockets are on their own circuit? The upstairs bedroom will be different if that’s the case.

A “no contact” voltage tester is not a reliable indicator of the presence, or lack of, voltage on a cable.


We are all guessing here as to what has happened and how it can be fixed, and can only really give possible suggestions.

You may need some investigating behind units and walls to find the real cause.

All kitchen sockets are on radial for except one from what I was advised. The two wires behind the wall on one side of the kitchen where there used to be a socket is not on a radial. It is on a ring however the first electrician advise was to resolve this, it needs to be done either by getting access to the wall behind or by removing the floorboard from the bedroom upstairs. It would be linked to something most likely to a bedroom wall socket.

 

[brianmoooore]

To verify if this is two radials or an open ring final really isn't difficult something an electrician should be able to establish.

Don't see how, without a thorough inspection as to what goes where. It's either a RFC or a radial with two branches from the circuit source. The 32A breaker suggests it was originally a RFC, but now there's no continuity of the ring on any conductor, but it's not known if this is deliberate, to create radials, or as a result of a fitting being removed or partially disconnected, and whether or not there are live bare ended cables somewhere.

Some manufacturers make a 25A breaker which may be preferred if several appliances on same radial circuit and give a little more security than overloading a 20A!

On a 2.5mm2 radial? Very unlikely that the cables are installed to permit this. More likely that the maximum breaker should be 16A.

 

[littlespark]

For a fairly new build house, I would think a separate ring for kitchen, hence the 32A breaker.

The cables may indeed run up to above the ceiling, but not connect to any upstairs socket. Just used the floor void to run cables.

It is possible to work out where a socket used to be in the kitchen. There may be plans lodged with LABC that shows what the kitchen used to look like, or even old estate agents photos. (Zoopla gives previous sales records)

If indeed there is a hidden joint box, then the location of a now missing socket could give a clue.



I will say it again… a good electrician should disconnect every socket and switch in a logical manner and map out which cable goes where.
Just taking a continuity reading at the board just gives a symptom and not a solution.

Creating 2 radials from one ring is a bodge IMO. Repair what is there, not a workaround.
A 32A rfc is what was decided to be installed, given the assumed load on the circuit. Dropping to a 20 is going to create future issues if overloaded at any time.


It may be that there has been individual radials put in initially for high load appliances…. Tumble dryer or whatever… which has now been changed to a general use socket.


We’re going round in circles with this one until someone is actually on site and can advise.

Fault finding is an art at times. Can sometimes be found in 5 minutes, sometimes 5 hours.

 

[DefyG]

Very unlikely that the cables are installed to permit this.

Agreed, not knowing the full installation details, but sometimes it is possible!

 

[James]

A new build house should come with an installation certificate that lists all the original circuits and there Type.

 

[Des 56]

Post 37 tells you the correct course of action
Why all the questions about the cables "perhaps going upstairs"
That issue is solved in a few minutes by anyone with or without elect knowledge

Seems to me
This should really be repaired not just made to work with your fingers crossed the downrating does the trick

 

[Hakuhou]

Creating 2 radials from one ring is a bodge IMO.

Honest question, if you were to do this would a potential solution be to go the consumer unit and then split the ring into two 20amp radials?

 

[Jock from the north]

Honest question, if you were to do this would a potential solution be to go the consumer unit and then split the ring into two 20amp radials?

It may be a bodge job but trying to repair a rfc in any newbuild is disruptive. Also depends where its broken .if its the first leg then what's the point..

 

[Jock from the north]

Some manufacturers make a 25A breaker which may be preferred if several appliances on same radial circuit and give a little more security than overloading a 20A!

Highly unlikely with reference method on a new build.only takes a bit of glass wool to overheat cable.try it your self don't go by what the book says.if you have cover a partial part of your 2.5mm Immersion circuit in a mass of glass wool and feel the difference either side when it's only pulling 12A.

 

[littlespark]

Honest question, if you were to do this would a potential solution be to go the consumer unit and then split the ring into two 20amp radials?

In this situation, where the kitchen appliances may not be equally distributed between the two radials. I would rather reinstate the ring.
if it was a ring serving bedrooms, or living rooms, with a low load, I might split into radials.

It may be a bodge job but trying to repair a rfc in any newbuild is disruptive. Also depends where its broken .if its the first leg then what's the point..

It’s a new build… but it’s a new build that has already been altered… which has likely caused the problem in the first place.



Reinstatement of the ring is not impossible.

 

[Jock from the north]

In this situation, where the kitchen appliances may not be equally distributed between the two radials. I would rather reinstate the ring.
if it was a ring serving bedrooms, or living rooms, with a low load, I might split into radials.



It’s a new build… but it’s a new build that has already been altered… which has likely caused the problem in the first place.



Reinstatement of the ring is not impossible.

True.but the word alteration has a significant part in the matter .we are talking the previous sparky or builder extending ring and something being not quite right to begin with ,ive been in plenty new builds with broken rings .during the last alterations the rfc should have been confirmed before steaming in .and your right nothing is impossible especially in a kitchen where you have access under plinths (using trunking) as an only resort .you would just prey both legs of rfc enter kitchen without any problems