Lack of neutrals

[meggerlover]

Hi guys done an EICR other day 3phase 32 circuits


problem is out of the 32 circuits there was only around 10 neutral cables 3 of which was from t&e the rest in singles any ideas guys

 

[telectrix]

Forgive me Tel, what I should have said was I don't believe that there's any being anywhere that is superior to me.

that's more like it. with that, you could possibly become an honorary scouser ( 5 week course and £6000 by bank transfer should fix it)

 

[Guest77]

Bloody hell Mike, what kind of question are you putting into a search to come up with results like that?
What kind of person are you?

It is amazing what you see on Facebook Trev lol

 

[meggerlover]

This is absolutely ridiculous!!!
Op you clearly have no right to be carrying out Eicr's, it is painfully clear you are out of your depth, to ask such a basic question scares the
crap out of me.
For god sake put your tools away and go and get a job that requires less Brain cells.
Enough is enough, when will things like this stop.

Explain in to me how this is a basic question I'm onviously missing something

 

[trev]

I'm more than competent on 3 phase and single phase , it's a 3 phase DB using all ways as single phase circuits , so the theory for 3 phase without neutral is N/A

i was myself thinking there is either borrowed neutrals everywhere or something else in the set up giving the required neutrals

If there are borrowed neutrals all over the place then the testing which you should have carried out given your suspicions would have confirmed this or proved your thought process wrong.
The very fact that you are asking this question scares the living daylights out of me, for your own sake, as you're evidently deluding yourself when you claim to be "more than competent on 3 phase"
However, let's go with your theory for now. Out of the 22 circuits which are missing neutrals, what is being powered by them?

 

[Darkwood]

I'm more than competent on 3 phase and single phase , it's a 3 phase DB using all ways as single phase circuits , so the theory for 3 phase without neutral is N/A

i was myself thinking there is either borrowed neutrals everywhere or something else in the set up giving the required neutrals

Apologies Megger that your introduction to the forum is not a good one but you really have to understand that if your asking this question at your level then something is seriously wrong.... are the so called single phase ways not in fact separate fuse holders for a 3 ph load and not 3 single phase circuits... again not realising this is poor reflection on your competence.

 

[meggerlover]

For f***s sake, why would you need a neutral on a 3Ph circuit!

Go away before I loose my temper.

There are no 3 phase end circuits involved there is 32 single phase circuits that's the question

 

[Guest77]

Apologies Old jag

 

[R G]

Apologies Old jag

I keep looking to see if he has returned , might get a sensible post...

 

[trev]

It is amazing what you see on Facebook Trev lol

Well that confirms my opinion mate, FB is crap and should be avoided at all costs. I was hounded into setting an account up and I have to say it's the biggest load of self centred, attention seeking, whiney garbage that I've ever had the misfortune of seeing.
Ridiculous things like "Share this if you are against child abuse". Now because I didn't share it, by implication am I pro child abuse?
"Share this if you love your children" Of course I love my children but that's got bugger all to do with anyone else (sometimes I hate the little freaks and want to kill them but that's another story)

 

[meggerlover]

Apologies Megger that your introduction to the forum is not a good one but you really have to understand that if your asking this question at your level then something is seriously wrong.... are the so called single phase ways not in fact separate fuse holders for a 3 ph load and not 3 single phase circuits... again not realising this is poor reflection on your competence.

Jesus

it's a 3 phase DB
l1 l2 l3 is 3 seperate single phase circuits on each way if the DB

i have carried out tests on the system as required (no dead testing as not viable for client at time so solely visual and live tests carried out)
the owner told me the building was renovated by 2 polish builders

 

[Guest77]

Facebook is okay if you get your settings right, privacy and security settings I mean, then you can enjoy it with friends and family, it is also amazing who you can talk to as well, some famous people have a right laugh on it as well, but generally I agree it is a bit attention seeking like for some people on there, there are silly posts as you just mentioned lol

 

[meggerlover]

Only live tests carried out to date
3phase DB l1 l2 l3 on each way is 3 seperate circuits single phase

building renovated by 2 polish builders

hence cef by suspicions

 

[trev]

that's more like it. with that, you could possibly become an honorary scouser ( 5 week course and £6000 by bank transfer should fix it)

Sod off, you just want to lower me to your level

 

[telectrix]

just because geordies are sweaty socks that were too lazy to climb a wall.:smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

[Pete999]

Can't believe that you have asked this question, as your profile says you have all of the electrical qualifications, there are a lot of them to hold!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[trev]

Where do you think Hadrian got the brickies from? We were bribed to stay here by the promise of a better life. Instead the sweaties got whisky, great scenery, Rab C Nesbitt, Billy Connolly and Big Country.

 

[meggerlover]

Can't believe that you have asked this question, as your profile says you have all of the electrical qualifications, there are a lot of them to hold!!!!!!!!!!!!

Explain why you can't believe this question ???????

have you read my other posts in this thread

 

[telectrix]

and they only got the forth bridge because the geordies cocked up the measurement for the tyne bridge.

 

[Guest77]

Where do you think Hadrian got the brickies from? We were bribed to stay here by the promise of a better life. Instead the sweaties got whisky, great scenery, Rab C Nesbitt, Billy Connolly and Big Country.

And don't forget a taste for hating the English either.

 

[trev]

and they only got the forth bridge because the geordies cocked up the measurement for the tyne bridge.

No, that was a subby labourer that we trusted to get it right. He was from Birkinhead

 

[Darkwood]

Jesus

it's a 3 phase DB
l1 l2 l3 is 3 seperate single phase circuits on each way if the DB

i have carried out tests on the system as required (no dead testing as not viable for client at time so solely visual and live tests carried out)
the owner told me the building was renovated by 2 polish builders

We are aware its a 3ph board but older boards used HRC fuses or rewireable fuses this were not interlinked and if a 3ph supply was required it was supplied by 3 separate fuses that can if not ID'ed look like 3 single phase circuits..

You never relayed it had recently been wired up by Polish.
You didn't say this was a modern board (mcb)
The query that it may be an old board giving you confusion as a 3ph supply on these older boards were supplied by 3 separate fuses which are easily confused for 3 single phase loads if not identified.
If as you state they are single phase supplies and clearly lacking in N cores at the board and your tests confirm this to be the case thus borrowed then I would be not wasting time writing up a report Id be recommending on your finding that the DB circuits are wired incorrectly and pose a high risk of fire and shock and would recommend it be shut down until the main areas of concern are addressed.

Other arrangement can see a reduced no' of N even on single phase supplies like lighting boards where the N is tapped off a N rail in a contactor board instead of the DB as you gave very little info we can only guess but maybe you have had a little bit of a hard run but thats how your Opening Post reads ....

Can you supply more info, pic etc nature of DB and Loads attached then the responses you seek will be more forthcoming.

 

[meggerlover]

We are aware its a 3ph board but older boards used HRC fuses or rewireable fuses this were not interlinked and if a 3ph supply was required it was supplied by 3 separate fuses that can if not ID'ed look like 3 single phase circuits..

You never relayed it had recently been wired up by Polish.
You didn't say this was a modern board (mcb)
The query that it may be an old board giving you confusion as a 3ph supply on these older boards were supplied by 3 separate fuses which are easily confused for 3 single phase loads if not identified.
If as you state they are single phase supplies and clearly lacking in N cores at the board and your tests confirm this to be the case thus borrowed then I would be not wasting time writing up a report Id be recommending on your finding that the DB circuits are wired incorrectly and pose a high risk of fire and shock and would recommend it be shut down until the main areas of concern are addressed.

Other arrangement can see a reduced no' of N even on single phase supplies like lighting boards where the N is tapped off a N rail in a contactor board instead of the DB as you gave very little info we can only guess but maybe you have had a little bit of a hard run but thats how your Opening Post reads ....

Can you supply more info, pic etc nature of DB and Loads attached then the responses you seek will be more forthcoming.

Apoligies for lack of information and thanks for your reply
I don't know how recently the refurb took place looks like >5 years old
it's definitely a 3 phase supply TN-s 3 seperate fuses DB is 4pole isolator 100a hager mcbs


there earlier replays were both harsh and pre mature but I recognise lack of info

 

[shanky887614]

Apoligies for lack of information and thanks for your reply
I don't know how recently the refurb took place looks like >5 years old
it's definitely a 3 phase supply TN-s 3 seperate fuses DB is 4pole isolator 100a hager mcbs


there earlier replays were both harsh and pre mature but I recognise lack of info

we have seen it quite a few times where multiple phase circuits are not interlocked.

I wouldn't be suprised if dw or some others came across 4pole non interlocked (long ago they used to fuse neutrel as well)

 

[meggerlover]

we have seen it quite a few times where multiple phase circuits are not interlocked.

I wouldn't be suprised if dw or some others came across 4pole non interlocked (long ago they used to fuse neutrel as well)

Yeah I have seen fused neutrals on rewiring jobs , but never came across this situation I'm inclined to think that your idea on the N rail contactor although if there is it's inaccessible

 

[Darkwood]

Can you expand on what is in this board load wise ...do you have many lighting circuits balanced over the phases?
Are the circuits correctly identified?
Switch of the N should be avoided in favour of a solid N block, if as you suggest it is a 4pole main switch ensure the N for that model is early make late break.
Is this the primary distribution board or a down stream sub-mains?