Lack of RCD protection on Sockets a C2? | Page 2 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Lack of RCD protection on Sockets a C2? in the Periodic Inspection Reporting & Certification area at ElectriciansForums.net

An eicr is carried out to ascertain if the installation is safe for continued use

It is tested as per the current regulations,any non conformities are then coded

If it was installed to an earlier edition,the non conformity, taking in mind what was current at that time,has to be considered and the coding decided with the install date in mind
 
The opinions of the NICEIC or any of the other organisation are irrelevant. The only thing that counts is what the IET say, they write the regs that we have to work to. End of. Simple really, and if you read the opening page or 3 within the regs, it clearly states the requirements, and considerations for work done to an earlier version.
 
basically. is it safe for continued use? if yes, then it can't be a fail..... does it comply with 17th ed. regs. if not, then a code 3 would be applicable if you thought it required improvement.
 
Slight hangover here, but, if im reading this thread correctly............wtf.

Every house according to this thread in the whole of the UK would fail because you can plug anything in through the kitchen window....

Only if the socket is physically outside and there is no RCD protection should it warrant a C2 IMO.
 
My board is a 16th Ed board so according to some people here then yes it is a fail cause its not up to 17th Ed.
 
If it is to the 16th edition, then any socket outlets that may be used for outside equipment SHOULD be RCD protected.
If they werent installed like that at the time, then the Installer didnt comply with the 16th Edition Regs, which was quite common IME.
 
I was being sarcastic alanl. It just annoys me that some people who check out CU's don't take into account when the CU was installed. Then they just come across as money grabbing rip-off merchants when they recommend that the CU is changed when there are cheaper options.
 
[why were 3036 boards still being sold/fitted?]

Because the installers couldnt be bothered to learn how to fit these 'new fangled' boards, or the wholesalers were doing the fuseboxes at £20 whereas the RCD boards were £75.
Any number of reasons. Probably the same in 2008 when dual RCD boards were needed to be fitted to the majority of upgrades/new builds, but there were still many single RCD boards being fitted.

Lack of Regulation / checking / dilligence by the designer/Installer.
 
To continue the debate ......... when doing an EICR it has to be done against current regs, of which the 17th regs state sockets liable to provide outside equipment must be RCD protected. The regs then further advise that in completing an EICR you report that discrepancy as either C1 "Danger Present", C2 "Potentially Dangerous" or C3 "further investigation required/improvement recommended".

Nowhere in the regs does it give examples of typical codes, so you as the responsible engineer use your engineering judgement to decide without consulting any of the electrical industry governing bodies. No RCD protection was acceptable when you were an apprentice fitting re-wireable fuse boards and you still consider it safe. Thats your call but the IET dont as they've update the Regs to say that sockets should have RCD protection. If they thought it was still safe not to have RCD protection then they wouldn’t have made it a requirement?

OK, you made your engineering call that the socket isn’t able to provide outside power or needs RCD protection if it can be used outside. In "your" opinion you mark it on the EICR as a C3. To you its not considered “dangerous” or “potentially dangerous” but just needs an improvement at a later date to meet current regs which make it safer for the user -- by that admission you are sort of implying you dont think its safe??

Now little Jimmy is playing on a bouncy castle in the garden fed from that very socket you have called a C3 on your EICR and receives an electric shock, probably causing death. HSE will now have an interest in speaking to you along with a gentleman from "where there's a blame there's a claim" solicitors Ltd. who have been in contact with little Jimmy Dad.

You end up in court and they call any of the electrical industry bodies (IET, ESC, NICEIC, ELECSA etc ...) as expert witnesses for the prosecution. Between them they give their engineering opinion stating that it should have been a C2 and an "unsatisfactory" for continued use, with an RCD being fitted before it became "satisfactory" for further use. As per their regulations and guidance, hence saving little Jimmys life. They also bring out a multitude of publications, which are freely available to every electrician who is completing an EICR should he need guidance. These give their recommended codes for various faults, of which the socket one was a C2.

The judge calls case to answer and you step into the 'dock' to counter their ‘expert’ engineering opinion as to why you found it perfectly safe for the socket to feed outside equipment without RCD protection and why you didn’t need to follow any guidance from within the electrical industry ........

p.s. The above is all speculative but I speak from experience of having seen HSE bring a charge and then seeing a colleague in the 'dock' getting a savaging over his interpretation of regulations (not electrical) when industry body experts gave their different engineering judgements/interpretations which hadn’t been followed. The result was the company was found guilty and suffered a healthy fine. (Fortunately there were no fatalities)
Motto of the story ..... Rules are for the adherence of fools or the guidance of wise men who know how to apply them … and there is plenty of guidance out there that can assist you if you don’t know how to apply them!

- - - Updated - - -

Window cleaners stereo?

Fair point ....
 
To continue the debate ......... when doing an EICR it has to be done against current regs, of which the 17th regs state sockets liable to provide outside equipment must be RCD protected. The regs then further advise that in completing an EICR you report that discrepancy as either C1 "Danger Present", C2 "Potentially Dangerous" or C3 "further investigation required/improvement recommended".

Nowhere in the regs does it give examples of typical codes, so you as the responsible engineer use your engineering judgement to decide without consulting any of the electrical industry governing bodies. No RCD protection was acceptable when you were an apprentice fitting re-wireable fuse boards and you still consider it safe. Thats your call but the IET dont as they've update the Regs to say that sockets should have RCD protection. If they thought it was still safe not to have RCD protection then they wouldn’t have made it a requirement?

OK, you made your engineering call that the socket isn’t able to provide outside power or needs RCD protection if it can be used outside. In "your" opinion you mark it on the EICR as a C3. To you its not considered “dangerous” or “potentially dangerous” but just needs an improvement at a later date to meet current regs which make it safer for the user -- by that admission you are sort of implying you dont think its safe??

Now little Jimmy is playing on a bouncy castle in the garden fed from that very socket you have called a C3 on your EICR and receives an electric shock, probably causing death. HSE will now have an interest in speaking to you along with a gentleman from "where there's a blame there's a claim" solicitors Ltd. who have been in contact with little Jimmy Dad.

You end up in court and they call any of the electrical industry bodies (IET, ESC, NICEIC, ELECSA etc ...) as expert witnesses for the prosecution. Between them they give their engineering opinion stating that it should have been a C2 and an "unsatisfactory" for continued use, with an RCD being fitted before it became "satisfactory" for further use. As per their regulations and guidance, hence saving little Jimmys life. They also bring out a multitude of publications, which are freely available to every electrician who is completing an EICR should he need guidance. These give their recommended codes for various faults, of which the socket one was a C2.

The judge calls case to answer and you step into the 'dock' to counter their ‘expert’ engineering opinion as to why you found it perfectly safe for the socket to feed outside equipment without RCD protection and why you didn’t need to follow any guidance from within the electrical industry ........

p.s. The above is all speculative but I speak from experience of having seen HSE bring a charge and then seeing a colleague in the 'dock' getting a savaging over his interpretation of regulations (not electrical) when industry body experts gave their different engineering judgements/interpretations which hadn’t been followed. The result was the company was found guilty and suffered a healthy fine. (Fortunately there were no fatalities)
Motto of the story ..... Rules are for the adherence of fools or the guidance of wise men who know how to apply them … and there is plenty of guidance out there that can assist you if you don’t know how to apply them!

- - - Updated - - -



Fair point ....


i'll sum that long - winded but useful post into 3 letters ..... CYA.
 
i'll sum that long - winded but useful post into 3 letters ..... CYA.

Sorry, thats the problem when you have a wife who writes books, you slowly get drawn into verbose writting when a few succinct words would do the trick ......
[h=3]Dont risk ending up in court ..... cover your ar*e[/h]
 

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