Landlords electrical safety certificate

[nickblake]

Sorry push Rod i didnt spot your post , these dam glasses , its a dam good point though my friend ill let you know what elecsa say if i get a reply and think i will they'r good like that

 

[pushrod]

Sorry push Rod i didnt spot your post , these dam glasses , its a dam good point though my friend ill let you know what elecsa say if i get a reply and think i will they'r good like that

Cheers, id be interested to hear as it does seem at the moment that a sparky doing his job properly could have difficulty proving it in the event of a disaster - and could even have the blame pushed onto him, unless he has the confirmation that he did actually say the installation was unsafe.( ie by registering it with someone)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If you go so far as to issue a danger notice, then wouldn't you be morally bound to inform the DNO?

 

[telectrix]

i personally would inform DNO in writing by recorded delivery. then , if they do nothing, my back is well covered. same would apply if i found a meter bypassed.

 

[tonys]

Signing things off means accepting liability.

Duty of Care and once proven can turn to negligence then who knows: corporate manslaughter?

Its all about transferring responsibility and the mug who takes it on, don't even realize just sees the ££££ signs.

 

[nickblake]

i personally would inform DNO in writing by recorded delivery. then , if they do nothing, my back is well covered. same would apply if i found a meter bypassed.

I agree but would they listen , its hard enough getting them out for meter problems , in my eyes it would be like Part P and the council we have to notify and it goes via our trade body , if you send a notification to your trade body , and they imform the DNO ,think they may well have a little more cloute than us electricians , because if you think about it its us guys who are the more qualified as we look further than the meter , how many times do you come across dodgy meter tails and nothings ever done and at the end of the day once there tails go into the meter , anything that comes out is not their responcability

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The Part P scheme is a Statutory obligation, this is set out in Building Regulations. Non-compliance with Building Regulations is a criminal offence.
There is no Statutory obligation for domestic installations not to be dangerous. Having a dangerous domestic installation is not a criminal offence.

 

[pushrod]

The Part P scheme is a Statutory obligation, this is set out in Building Regulations. Non-compliance with Building Regulations is a criminal offence.
There is no Statutory obligation for domestic installations not to be dangerous. Having a dangerous domestic installation is not a criminal offence.

I don't think anybody is saying it should be - just that if an installation has been adjudged dangerous there should be a record made of it - not least to protect any electrician working/visiting on it from a claim of negligence.

 

[tonys]

I don't think anybody is saying it should be - just that if an installation has been adjudged dangerous there should be a record made of it - not least to protect any electrician working/visiting on it from a claim of negligence.

Duty of Care could force a claim for negligence onto the person who discovered the dangerous situation if they do not take reasonable steps to ensure nobody gets hurts in the future.

Example: I was made to disconnect a ring circuit from the mcb feeding the kitchen socket which was damaged, the property was empty and we had picked it for the nic yearly inspection and they put the Duty of care stroke on me being the QS.

 

[pushrod]

Duty of Care could force a claim for negligence onto the person who discovered the dangerous situation if they do not take reasonable steps to ensure nobody gets hurts in the future.

.

Agree entirely ! Also similar for an owner of installation on being told it is dangerous.

 

[tonys]

Agree entirely ! Also similar for an owner of installation on being told it is dangerous.

In writing as well to cover ones bum, but offer to put it right first.

 

[BlueToBits]

AFAIK in a domestic installation there is no legal requirement to report a dangerous installation. It would be impossible to do so.
All work carried out must be certified as compliant, including those parts of the existing installation the new work relies upon for safe operation. An installer must not undertake work that cannot be certified as compliant. So given that the onus is that negligence has to be proved, how can an electrician be prosecuted for not providing a danger notice for other parts of that installation if his or her installation certificate does not cover those parts of the installation?
A PIR is a different beast. The inspector declares that he has inspected and tested in accordance with BS7671. If he fails to do this, he then could leave himself open to potential prosecution.
The PIR is designed to be a report of the safety of the installation, but it is generally used as a means of passing the buck onto the inspecting engineer.
Those not 100% sure of what they are doing when carrying out a PIR are leaving themselves wide open.

 

[IQ Electrical]

AFAIK in a domestic installation there is no legal requirement to report a dangerous installation. It would be impossible to do so.
All work carried out must be certified as compliant, including those parts of the existing installation the new work relies upon for safe operation. An installer must not undertake work that cannot be certified as compliant. So given that the onus is that negligence has to be proved, how can an electrician be prosecuted for not providing a danger notice for other parts of that installation if his or her installation certificate does not cover those parts of the installation?
A PIR is a different beast. The inspector declares that he has inspected and tested in accordance with BS7671. If he fails to do this, he then could leave himself open to potential prosecution.
The PIR is designed to be a report of the safety of the installation, but it is generally used as a means of passing the buck onto the inspecting engineer.
Those not 100% sure of what they are doing when carrying out a PIR are leaving themselves wide open.

Interesting points but I wouldn't like to be standing in court saying "yes your honour, I saw exposed live parts on the cooker outlet but I was only changing a dimmer"

I think as a competent person, you have a duty of care to the client and while that does not extend to checking all parts of the installation, it has to extend to at least pointing out items causing immediate danger that you've seen.

I will continue to use the Electrical Danger Notification whether it's a legal requirement or not.

 

[BlueToBits]

Interesting points but I wouldn't like to be standing in court saying "yes your honour, I saw exposed live parts on the cooker outlet but I was only changing a dimmer".....

Absolutley, of course I would bring it to the attention of the householder. But my point is that you cannot be held legally responsible for failing to report the danger. It is very possible you would not be aware of this danger - or anything else that may be an immediate cause of danger. The Danger Notice is one way of bringing to the attention of the client anything you may notice, but it won't protect your bum because your bum does not need protecting.

The moral issues are, of course, a different kettle of fish, but you can't placate them by merely issuing a piece of paper. The Minor Works Certificate for the dimmer switch describes exactly what was done and may even recommend that the installation should be inspected.

By all means issue a Danger Notice to the client for the exposed cooker outlet, after all, he didn't realise it was dangerous. But what actually killed him was was the portable fan heater falling into his bath whilst plugged into the socket by the soap dish. He thought is must be OK because his electrician didn't give him one of those danger notice papers for it.
"but, your honour, I didn't see the socket....."
"I put it to you that you failed in your obligations because were more focussed on scaring your client into buying a new cooker when you should have recommended a full inspection report"

 

[sparky1ste]

couldnt said it better myself!