Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[D Skelton]

I am genuinely interested to see what others thoughts are on this matter.

Hypothetically speaking, the government disbands the current scam schemes and puts out to tender a GasSafe style system for electricians. Costs are lower, standards maintained, enforcement carried out blah blah blah.... Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake. The main difference however is that in order to practise as an electrician in the UK, you now legally have to hold an electricians licence. The word 'electrician' is also protected by statute from fraudulent and unlawful use and only useable by licence holders.

I want to know what qualifications you guys think an individual would have to posses in order to gain a licence and be legally allowed to call themselves an electrician.

I want to make it clear that I'm not into this becoming a Electrical Trainee bashing thread, I am genuinely interested as to be honest, I am currently on the fence and would like to hear your views.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

 

[Engineer54]

Does the term Domestic Installer then allow these schemes the scope and opportunity to create a Domestic Fault finder thus creating another course and qualification

We just need one baseline set up then everyone knows the level that an electrician is at. Would the unions of the 70's allowed all this demarcation within one industry field

The term ''Domestic Installer'' (or any derivatives) should be cast out into the abyss, never to be seen or heard of again!!

 

[D Skelton]

Yeah this is where I stand now. If it wasn't for the introduction of wire by number guides then there would be no such thing as a domestic installer, there would only be electricians.

Domestic wiring is no harder or simpler than any other type of wiring, only it has about a million different guides on how to do it without having to know anything first!

Burn the books, raise the level of quals!

Burn the books I tell y'all! Buuuuuuurn them aaaaaalllllll!

 

[m top]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

I think what a lot of the posts are getting at is being competent,I agree with why should you have to learn how to install cable trays, learn about induction motors ect when they don't come in to your every day working life,the core of electrical work is the same be it a domestic circuit industrial cuircuit there is no difference in working on both if you are competent you are competent.)

 

[overskilled]

TBH - I see both sides here...
I agree competency is the key, BUT its different from skills as Mtop and HHD have both pointed out.
Drs for example have a base level and pickup the training they need as they go along...no Dr is expected to do everything...e.g. cardiac surgeons tend to know little or nothing about urology, how is that any different from industrial vs domestic sparking...2 wholly different fields with 2 quite different job requirements, which is why often you can tell where an industrial spark has been doing domestic "homers".
A lot of training is done in house by companies, and why from a business POV are they going to train someone in an area the company doesn't work in? If they don't do 3 phase why train someone on it...its a cost to the business without any benefit to the company.
A competency practical should say be a week (or more) of practical assessment (plenty of colleges are screaming for money as things are tight even for them). I'd put in 3 tests - Domestic, Industrial (work only in industrial premises, no domestic work), Full Scope (do whatever).
Means it would be a much easier "sell" to business, put your guys/girls through the relevant test and not pay for something non relevant to the business...
Also means that say an industrial spark got laid off and wanted a move into domestic, they could do a training course through the college (Which would then have the space to teach a wider range of skills and set up more "realistic" exercises, which would improve the standard of trainees) and sit the domestic / full scope assessment.
I get the argument of everyone being able to do everything...but you don't expect all people getting a driving licence to pass the HGV/PSV test, which is what some seem to be advocating.....

 

[Engineer54]

I am what you chaps like to call a 5 week wonder, even though the course was 6 months its much the same thing. I am a Domestic Installer, I work solely in domestic dwellings and that is all I want to do.

Once a year the NICEIC/Elecsa (stroma in my case) come and see me and check one of my jobs (which they have chosen, so I cant just choose a 'good' one) and they spend the whole day with me thoroughly checking through all my paperwork and ensuring my knowledge is sufficient to work in DOMESTIC premises.

I do not see why I should be forced to do a course that involves working in Industrial and commercial situations when I will never enter that arena. I intend to constantly further my knowledge and skill base through courses that are relevant to what I want to do and working alongside experienced electricians.

I am good at what I do, take pride in the work and never undertake anything I am unsure about (3 phase for example).

Rather than just have a blanket term for an 'electrician', I think it ok to have 'Domestic electricians' who are capable of working safely in houses.

The changes that I would welcome and think necessary would be to make the 'Domestic Installers' course longer (perhaps a year) and making it mandatory to do some work on-site during that time. I then think I should be able to call myself a 'Domestic Electrician'

Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!

 

[Silly Sausage]

Burn the books I tell y'all! Buuuuuuurn them aaaaaalllllll!

Typical ----! :tounge_smile:

 

[m top]

Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)

We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!

Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!

I agree totally ,but there are some very good domestic electricians out there that people on here would not call electricians because they don't work in the industrial sector isn't it not the same ?

 

[D Skelton]

and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered

Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

No offence but more fool you mate. I'm 'approved' by Elecsa (or at least I will be for the next three months) and I pay £300 less than those 'approved' by the NIC. Their 'domestic installer' category is purely marketing gumpf designed to get more money out of you for the very reason you have stated!

"Give him a badge that he will be embarressed to wear and he'll be forced to stump up the extra cash to be called something more appropriate"

I tell you what, I am going to set up a competent persons scheme right now! I'm gonna call it Rommel Certification Ltd and to be a member you have to pay me £400+VAT. With that I'll give you a pony two hour assessment and a badge to wear, on the badge will be the words "Stupid ape like creature".

Or.... Pay me 700+VAT and I'll give you another two hour pony assessment and I'll give you a badge with the words "genius" on it?

Which one ya gonna choose chump?

hmm...register with rommel......
or R & R self cert scheme....got a good ring to it has that


so if i set up one can i call it Jasta 5?

 

[UNG]

I think a lot of the problems lie with the NICEIC since it came up with defined scope approval to run along side the approved contractor scheme this to me has mushroomed into the competent persons schemes we have now. I would like to think that no self respecting electricians came up with the make a quick buck training system and schemes we have now.

We only need one line in the sand that is a base level qualification that enables everybody to work on any basic electrical system in any sector with further specialised courses or modularised training specific to the industry sectors you are working in if required quite simple really no money spinning assessment scheme complication an electrician is an electrician end of

 

[southsea1201]

Too many sparkies have a chip on their shoulder about qualifications. Just because you've done 3-5 as an apprentice doesn't make you a great sparky. I'm sure you've all been to sites where the job has been done by a proper spark and been disgusted. How many of you have taken the lid off a CU to be confronted by a birds nest? Surely it's about the ability to design, construct and test to a competent standard. It's about knowing the BGB and doing it right.

For instance when I did the 17th we were called out from the classroom to be given our results. You all know the form with the bar charts. I couldn't take my eyes off the pile of results as the top one had more white than black in the bar chart. The tutor saw me looking and said " he's failed and he's a qualified spark". Now for heavens sake how can you fail an open book exam.

Although I am not qualified as a spark to your terms ( I come from a mechanical engineering background previously a draughtsman) I took the 2391 and passed 6 years ago. To say that people can be schooled to pass is wide of the mark. Some colleges will not even offer this course as the pass rate is 30-35% and such a bad failure rate affects their income.

And another thing the tutor told me was that people who pay for their own courses are far more diligent than those whose fees are paid by their employer. He stated that many of them turn up to college half asleep.

There is merit in having your work assessed by the scams, because let's face it before then too many sparks were getting away with real shoddy workmanship, jobs had corners cut to maximise profits. Too many times certifcates were not issued. I do , however agree that a single body like the gas guys have would be much better.

Hats off to those that have pride in their work. For me there is good and bad every side of the fence, and there is much to much anecdotal evidence given here. Qualified sparks are NOT necessarily good sparks.

 

[pepparz]

Totally agreed! We wouldn't have domestic electricians fighting for scraps if the schemes had never been introduced!

I priced a domestic rewire a couple of months back, got the enquiry through my website. Basic job, empty property, 3 bed semi, I priced it at £2300 for two of my guys to do in five days (electrician and labourer). I got a call from the customer saying I hadn't got the job but thank you anyway, I asked why and surprise surprise I was too expensive. Oh well, no great loss for me but what shocked me is that I had been undercut by almost £800!!!

10 years ago I could have put in a price for £3300 and been guaranteed the work!!!

Now you see why I don't even bother competing for domestic work anymore, I'll spend 15 mins coming up with a rough price and that's it. Any more time is wasted time for me.

One industrial job I quoted for a few weeks back I've now won not because I was the cheapest, but because of 5 conractors asked to quote, I was the only one who was able to carry out the work an thus the only one who provided a quote!!! The rest just put their hands up and said "not a clue".

I think I'll stick to this kinda work thankyou very much lol.

not been funny but 5 days to do a empty rewire, me and a friend used to do them in 2

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!

I’m installing it as the customer has asked me??

I’m using a specific size of cable as it’s specification exceeds the amount of current that can be drawn by the load.

I’m using a specific cable for the type of job.. black rubber flex (outdoors – preferably RN), heat proof for immersion or from junction box to downlight, SWA when I need it protected, bell wire for door bells unless your worried about voltage drop then 0.75mm 2 core flex should be ok, etc etc etc

I want a low Zs as I want my protective device to work before my cable fry’s

Voltage drop can be dependent on lots of things… length of run, temperature, size of conductor… If you get too much VD then your load just isn’t going to work!

I need a certain size CPC so I shall use the adiabatic!

I understand the basics of electromagnetism but have to admit I do not know enough.

Types of protective measure… RCD’s, RCBO’s, MCB’s, fuse wire, cartridge fuse, double pole, single pole, triple pole..perhaps a rusty old nail!!

Please do go on and on Mr DS, I’m enjoying this

 

[Silly Sausage]

Why are there so many questions about things like...RCDs, why am I reading a Voltage on a disconnected cable; for starters.

There appears to be a lack of basic electrical knowledge going on here.