like for like shower

[Peter Woodford]

guys

if your replacing a like for like shower if its not rcd protected does this have to be done as well

 

[robsparky1975]

40ms you mean for 5x cycle on rcd trip? or 400ms for circuits upto 32a,would a shower not be 5 secs disconnection for a circuit breaker than,anyway i would be inclined to advise the additional protection of an rcd to bring it up to 17th edition.

 

[olly w]

If it is just a "like for like" and an rcbo i would give it a minor works cert and
would think it was not notifiable.

I thought altering the protective device of any circuit made it notifiable?

 

[pushrod]

I thought altering the protective device of any circuit made it notifiable?

I have not come across that in the books that i have read, but that is not to say that i have just not read that particular bit. In general notifiable work involves new circuits back to the CU, and extensions/additions to circuits in places like kitchens, bathrooms and gardens ie special locations and installations.

Like for like (with the exception of a complete CU), repair and maintenance even in a bathroom are not notifiable. I think that is because if it is notifiable there has to be at least something of design to inspect. I can't really see that an LABC could justify a £100+ fee to a skilled person for coming out to check the replacement of a 32A mcb for a 32A rcbo, but who can tell with an LABC

 

[malcolmsanford]

Don't think you will either Pushrod


(c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing
installation components, where the circuit
protective measures are unaffected;

(d) providing mechanical protection to an existing
fixed installation, where the circuit protective
measures and current carrying capacity of
conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal
insulation.

These can sometimes lead to confusion as they are classed as non notifiable, and they are as far as I can remember the only reference to protection devices in Part P, but sure somewhere hidden there will be.

 

[pushrod]

Don't think you will either Pushrod


These can sometimes lead to confusion as they are classed as non notifiable, and they are as far as I can remember the only reference to protection devices in Part P, but sure somewhere hidden there will be.

Yup Malcolm somewhere in a dingy cupboard at Part P offices there is a man writing obscure limited edition publications just trying to confuse the issue to make our lives harder

 

[roukel01]

changing the protective device of a circuit in a special location is notifiable. Thats a defo.

 

[pushrod]

changing the protective device of a circuit in a special location is notifiable. Thats a defo.

I would agree with you if changing a 32A MCB to a 40A or vice versa as that would involve some aspect of checking design that should have been previously checked. However, i would be very interested to see a reference that said changing a 32A mcb to a 32A rcbo was notifiable.

 

[roukel01]

I would agree with you if changing a 32A MCB to a 40A or vice versa as that would involve some aspect of checking design that should have been previously checked. However, i would be very interested to see a reference that said changing a 32A mcb to a 32A rcbo was notifiable.

So if I come accross an old MCB board with no RCD protection, as long as I keep to the existing ratings of the MCB's and change the entire lot for RCBO's that isn't notifiable work? The only difference between that and a new board is the enclosure.

 

[pushrod]

So if I come accross an old MCB board with no RCD protection, as long as I keep to the existing ratings of the MCB's and change the entire lot for RCBO's that isn't notifiable work? The only difference between that and a new board is the enclosure.

and you would want to do that as a cost effective improvement for a customer? I would have thought that fitting a brand new enclosure to BS EN60439-3 which for BS1361 fuses is rated for fault currents up to 16kA and doing a full set of tests would be quite important to a customer and quite a significant difference.
TBH i am not saying that i'm correct, i don't mind what the right answer is. It would just be nice to see something definite in print. It seems there are too many grey areas. But as i've said before i would be surprised if switching a 32A mcb for a 32A rcbo was notifiable.
Suppose we will have to agree to disagree

 

[roukel01]

and you would want to do that as a cost effective improvement for a customer? I would have thought that fitting a brand new enclosure to BS EN60439-3 which for BS1361 fuses is rated for fault currents up to 16kA and doing a full set of tests would be quite important to a customer and quite a significant difference.
TBH i am not saying that i'm correct, i don't mind what the right answer is. It would just be nice to see something definite in print. It seems there are too many grey areas. But as i've said before i would be surprised if switching a 32A mcb for a 32A rcbo was notifiable.
Suppose we will have to agree to disagree

I'm not saying its cost effective, but a possibility which is no different than changing one MCB for an RCBO.

 

[pushrod]

Ok ok so i have too much time on my hands - i phoned a couple of local LABCs and explained the scenario. First one gave it some thought and said "not notifiable". Second one didn't have anyone there, at that time, who knew, but gave me the phone number for napit - so i phoned them and a friendly chap said minor works cert and not notifiable, nearly talked me into joining there 8 only notification scheme as well.

So replacing mcb with same size rcbo = not notifiable (not that i would bet my life on it!) maybe one area now a little more black or white than grey.

 

[roukel01]

I still cannot see how it isn't notifiable. As I've said before, whats the difference between swapping the MCB's for RCBO's and a board change?

 

[telectrix]

all posts by pushrod, roukel, and others just go to show what a shambles part pee is. nobody, especially LABC has a clue what is going on. qualified electricians with 30 years experience are barred from doing their job unless they join a money grabbing organisation that just wants to boost it's annual profits. time for a total rethink.

 

[andekoch]

If you changed a mcb for an rcbo you are changing the protection characteristics of the circuit so that would mean mean an installation cert and not minor works. This also means it is no longer like for like, again because the protection characteristics are being changed so it is notifiable because of the special location.
Remember like for like is just that, if anything changes then it is not like for like any more and then either minor works or installation depending on what it is. Tricky part is when the manufacturer of the replacement part has specified they want increased protection eg rcd's than the original install had.
A good rule of thumb that works for me is if you do anything at the consumer unit it is an installation cert.

 

[roukel01]

Ok ok so i have too much time on my hands - i phoned a couple of local LABCs and explained the scenario. First one gave it some thought and said "not notifiable". Second one didn't have anyone there, at that time, who knew, but gave me the phone number for napit - so i phoned them and a friendly chap said minor works cert and not notifiable, nearly talked me into joining there 8 only notification scheme as well.

So replacing mcb with same size rcbo = not notifiable (not that i would bet my life on it!) maybe one area now a little more black or white than grey.

Well I've just been on with ELECSA, and they agree with me, if the MCB you are swapping supplies circuits within a special location then it bneeds to be notified. You are changing the safety characteristics of the circuits, all usual testing should be carried out on the circuit including the new RCD test for the RCBO, a minor works cert is sufficient, however it should still be notified.