Live neutral reverse!

[Delboybully]

I go to a job today, a nice simple one to replace a light switch.

They have a nice 8 way board with 6 used ways, all RCBO's installed about 2 years ago. So i turn the light on that this switch controls and turn the relavent braker off and out goes the light. I then pop on my volt stick as i usually do before i check for dead and it beeps. Odd i think. So just to be sure i turn all the brakers of and the volt stick still beeps. I turn off the main switch and volt stick no longer beeps. To double check this i set my tester to volts and run through the same procedure again. Sure enough, there is a voltage at the switch until i turn the main switch off. So i think the sparky who installed the CU has made a big mistake and somehow connected live neutral reverse. So i pop the cu cover off and all looks ok (correct coloured wires in the right postions), the incoming tails look ok (the correct coloured tail in the correct terminals). I test for polarity with my AVI, and the live and neutral are reversed. So i mention to the client that this isnt good and he informs me that the meter was changed 3 months ago. I follow the live from the head and sure enough it goes into the neutral of the meter. Unbelievable, i mean these are supposed to be professionals and it isnt hard to test polarity.

So i phone the DNO and they tell me that it isnt their responsibility as they only go as far as the head and its the billing companies responsibility. So I leave telling the customer to contact their billing company ASAP to get them to sort it.

I am still fuming about this, i cant believe they screwed this up so bad!!!!! Not to mention it very dangerous!!!!!!

 

[Knobhead]

Who are you calling an old fart? OK, so I am old(ish) and I’ll admit it.

It's hard to say if Delboy did right or wrong? I know what you or I would do, but he, as he admits doesn't have our experience. The collage have probably put the fear of god in to him regarding the legal side of things.

I would worry if a case like this ever reached court. Think about it, what carries presidence:
Breaking seals. (Wilful damage).
Failure to protect human life. (Criminal negligence).

The collages need to get this in to perspective and teach some common sense. (OK I’ll go and try to plat some fog, it’ll be easier).

 

[ipf]

Just the sort of problem where experience comes in handy, don't you think ?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It is my understanding, that the DNO have the right (according to ESQCR) to refuse a supply where the wiring of the installation is unsafe.
It's about the only time that they can refuse a supply now, whithout having to jump throuh hoops.
To my mind, the DNO should have come out to make the installation safe, then charged either the customer or the supply company.
I would have contacted both the DNO and the supply company, and if they were not able to respond within a reasonable time, I would have broken the seals and made safe.

 

[snowhead]

Poor old O.P getting bashed, but it is for his own protection.

Very difficult one this.

I'd have photographed the situation regardless and got the customer to sign to agree with the situation I'd found and my actions.

Then 2 choices;

1; I could have rung the D.N.O, as O.P. did, when told that they weren't interested I could have asked D.N.O to note that I was going to correct the situation by cutting the seals.
I'd have got the customer to contact the Energy supplier for them to reseal and take action against the meter fixer.

However the problem with the above is you destroy the evidence needed to get the meter fixer sacked, he/she would only end up with a warning at worst and I already knew that it's not the D.N.O's problem.


2; I'd have contacted the Energy supplier asking for a meter fixer to attend immediately to correct the dangerous situation.
I know they can't do that, they don't directly employ fixers, so when they'd told me an appointment would be arranged I'd have told them I was going to isolate and leave them to face the wrath of the customer, whom I'd have told to ring the supplier every half hour till they turned out.

It's easy to think of your actions with hindsight.

I'm also Gassafe registered and even the Gas regs don't give an operative the legal power to isolate the gas supply if a dangerous situation is found, for example low customer side pressure due to a faulty regulator. Obviously you can isolate to carry out work on appliances or pipework.
The term used is... With the permission of the customer (responsible person), isolate the supply. If the customer refuses contact the gas transporter, N.G.Gas, and they come and do it.


I wouldn't have walked away tho'

And also, If this was a gas related situation it would be a RIDDOR reportable situation, the HSE would be very keen to speak to the Meter fixer, his / her employer and the Energy supplier subcontacting the work out, they all have responsibilities for this. But it appears for electricity it's not reportable as there haven't been any injuries.

.

 

[Smudge]

i was once called to a job where somehow the customer had pulled their db off the wall above their front door. There was no isolator, so i cut the tabs, pulled the fuse, refixed the box, checked connections etc. i had been qualified for about a year. I made a suggestion to the guy that getting in touch with scottish power and paying the £60 for an isolator to be fitted would be a good idea, but up to him. 2 weeks later, i got a phonecall from scottish power, saying that the customer had passed my details to their 'engineer' when he had come to fit the isolator. They wanted to have me prosecuted and i'm sure they said the fine could be as much as 2 grand. I asked them what was i meant to do, and was i suppose to leave it unsafe, and the little witch on the phone said i had broken the law and that was that. I never heard from them again, but it was enough for me never to do it again.

So what is right and what is wrong?

 

[DurhamSparky]

i would have told her to .....OFF!!

if you had really broke the law and they wanted to get you in court why did they not....!!! i tell you why, as there would be a TEST CASE created in the UK with the only outcome been that YOU get off on a technicality (emergency work) and the power company is ORDERED to FIT isolators in all property's compulsory!

who will that hit in the pocket!

 

[derek preece]

I can't believe any reasonable jury or magistrate would convict an electrician for making the installation safe as long as the case for cutting the seals was well argued.

 

[Guest123]

Only one option in my mind.

If you have done all you reasonably can to get someone from the DNO out to rectify the problem, without any joy, I feel you have no other course of action other than to rectify it yourself.


There isn't a judge in the land that would find you guilty of any wrong doing in the above instance, the DNO however may find themselves in a whole pot of bother which may set a precident.

 

[Smudge]

i didn't contact the dno before hand, as my naievity (spelling??) led me to believe i was doing the right thing however misguided that may seem. And i also thought the safety tab tamporing was a scare story and not much more. I can fully sympathise with the OP, and although i have never been in a similar situation since, i'm not sure what i would do.

I also think that the people on here giving him dogs abuse should get off their high horses, and by the letter of the law, IMO he done the right thing. Wether that was the right thing in practice is a different story, but he was in no position to go against such a ruling.

 

[vernam616]

Another reason i keep new meter seals in my fixings box

I got a few given from a meter fitter however i do know that you can buy a pack of 100 on ebay

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As I understand it, the offence of tampering with the electricity supply, can only be proven if the intention is to extract or steal the electricity.
Otherwise, it becomes a simple case of criminal damage.
However it would then have to be proved that the damage was caused with criminal intent.
This is just another instance where the law is an ---.

 

[La Poste]

If you phoned the supplier and said you have a dangerous situation and you are going to wait at the property until they turn up and rectify it and you made a note of the call and who you spoke to that would be a good start.

Then you waited and waited until the end of the day arrived and the supplier didn't show so you then cut the seals and made safe.

I guess in court you would be OK as long as you could prove you gave the supplier the chance to put the job right.

The trouble is you would waste a whole day waiting for the supplier to show up.

 

[UNG]

I think the big mistake was not contacting the billing company immediately after speaking to the DNO although this problem may have existed for some time in my opinion time is of the essence in rectifying the problem once it is identified

As most people have phones with a built in camera if the billing company could not attend within a few hours then I certainly would have taken a load of pictures and rectified the problem and resealed the meter

If some one wanted to take me to court for doing that then I would certainly like to see the meter fixer charged with negligence for putting someone's life at risk

I too was always told not to tamper with the cut out or metering but these days how many phone calls do you need to make before somebody accepts it is their problem to sort

 

[markthespark]

Has anyone actually been fined or prosecuted for cutting a seal?

When i worked as a Meter Fitter we were taught to look out for meters being tampered with ie linked phases, holes drilled in the glass etc but if i ever spotted a seal missing i would have never reported it, as if i did id spent half my working day on the phone. And would they even care? How could they prove who cut the seal? For all they know the last Meter Fitter might have forgotten to put a seal on.

Its safety first for me, if im changing a CU i dont hesitate to cut the seal. Im not going to wait X amount of weeks for the DNO to come and put an isolater in.

In this instance i would have rang the DNO and informed them of the reversed polarity and that i had amended the problem, i wouldnt even mention the cut seals.

 

[Guest111]

I once went to a job where the customers installation was unsafe to the point of being lethal and he didn,t want to do anything about it,so I rang DNO and explained it to them and they said they would send engineer out at some point that day but actually told me to pull the service fuse as there was a real risk to life,and if there were any issues they would contact me.never heard a thing after,however I believe there is something where you can remove service fuse in an emergency,personally that is what I would have done after speaking to DNO,duty of care comes into this I believe,however I am older and have probably got a lot more experience than the op so in his shoes who,s to say?Dno should have come out though definately,I mean when the police raid cannabis farms and meter,s are bypassed they ring DNO and dont pratt about finding who supplier is,same in this case emergency=DNO after all the power comes up their cable.