Location of cooker iso's in Cupboards

[Robinson]

Hey guys !

So on Job where they have converted a room into studio flat inc a Kitchen
prob is its so tight in there its a real squeeze to get anything in.
Basically got elec Hob and oven. both fed in 6mm to cooker switch and plate. one of each for hob and cooker.
But they are located in the back of cupboard. low level. Fixed onto fabric of building.
My point is. I looking for reg on this. i know it gives preferred not fixed to kitchen fixtures but what about still being in cupboard not fixed. If we labelled at board location and maybe in cupboard. I personally have always had Cooker switches visable.
Is this still cool to have like this and could anyone point me to particular regs dealing with..i was thinking 537.3.2.5 and around

thanks

 

[MarkieSparkie]

It's only just occurred to me that trying to extrapolate 701.32.3 (referring to the under bath space normally zone 1 which if accessible only with a key or a tool is then considered outside the zones) to fit the washing machine in the cupboard situation is a non-starter, because the above regulation is intended to apply to access by competent persons and NOT by ordinary persons as would be the case in respect to the washing machine in the cupboard...bummer!

 

[MarkieSparkie]

EGBR 5.3.1 gives concise guidance and definitive answer...
Washing machines and tumble dryers may be installed in a bathroom provided they are:
1) installed outside the zones.
2) supplied from a FCU outside the zones or a socket outlet >3m from zone 1.
3) protected by 30mA RCD.
4) permitted for such installation by the manufacturer.
I think that also summarises where we got to via an intellectual detour.

 

[Engineer54]

Why would it not meet functional needs?
Is having a cooker switch in a cupboard any different to having a socket-outlet behind an appliance?
As for emergency switching, I think you should consider just what emergency you would be switching for.

Come on Spin, defending a cooker switch location buried behind pots, pans and god knows what else at the back of a cupboard?? Your far better than that mate!!!

 

[sjm]

Question taken from the ESC website.
NDQ34 "Is it acceptable to mount a cooker switch in a kitchen cupboard that is adjacent to the cooking appliance"
Answer
NDA34 "Yes, provided that the switch is located so as to be readily accessible"

So it would seem there is a middle ground. I would suggest moving the switch towards the front of the cupboard so as to make it more readily accessible.

 

[Robinson]

to fit the washing machine in the cupboard situation is a non-starter, because the above regulation is intended to apply to access by competent persons and NOT by ordinary persons as would be the case in respect to the washing machine in the cupboard...bummer!

Yeah totally ! i thought that when read, trained person or under supervision, i think isnt it....yeah Bummer !....

 

[Robinson]

Question taken from the ESC website.
NDQ34 "Is it acceptable to mount a cooker switch in a kitchen cupboard that is adjacent to the cooking appliance"
Answer
NDA34 "Yes, provided that the switch is located so as to be readily accessible"

So it would seem there is a middle ground. I would suggest moving the switch towards the front of the cupboard so as to make it more readily accessible.

Thing is its fixed to fabric of building , open cupboard door, at back board is cut and switches visible and reachable, cupboard by the way is next to cooker.
I am with enginneer 54 on this i have to say even thought its me in this situation, i hate that thought of pots pans and wot not in the way. it just irritates me. So although i do see it as now even when quoting from ESC as something permit able i would avoid at all costs. its don't compute to well with me. buy seemingly going to have to bite it on this occasion..

 

[sjm]

At a recent install I fitted the cooker control switch in the adjacent cupboard at the front, fixed to the cupboard.
Used the installation as one of my NICEIC assessments. Showed the assessor he had no problem with it and agreed that towards the front was better than at the back pots and pans etc, I also agree with Engineer 54.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that permanently fixed kitchen units can be counted as being part of the buildings structure. Lets face it a properly installed kitchen takes some removing, unless you take a sledge hammer to it, so lets let common sense prevail shall we.

 

[iconnect]

The way I understand is if you want to call the cupboard an enclosure it would need to be screwed shut or sercurity catches installed so can only be opened with a tool. The other option is as stated isolator outside bathroom etc As for the kitchen cupboard mounting I have just done a quote where the lady wanted all the isolators in a cupboard so I have told her there is to be no shelfs installed with the cupboard and that that isolators are mounted higher and the inside is to have a notice explaining the cupboard is just for electrical isolators ( the consumer unit is in there as well)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think the Chief Fire Officer might think an oven fire or chip pan blaze IS an emergency, and would expect to find easily accessible and obvious local isolation, the delay trying to find local or main isolation could be critical. Certainly any property subject to a formal fire safety inspection would not get away with a hidden CCU. BS4177 CCUs are deemed suitable for isolation, emergency switching and functional switching.

The conceit of electricians astounds me sometimes.
Electric cookers must have emergency switching in case of a fire, whereas gas cookers don't?
What exactly would isolating an electric cooker achieve in the event of chip pan blaze?
Would it extinguish the blaze, would it allow the use of water to combat the blaze?
Yes CCUs can are suitable for emergency switching, at least some of them are as far as BS7671 is concerned.
Then again so are MCB switches.
I would think the Chief fire officer would be more concerned about the lack of a fire blanket, than a readily accessible means of local emergency switching.

A cooker switch in a cupboard is the means of isolation for the cooker outlet, just like there should be for a hidden socket behind an appliance, which is why we fit FCU's above the worktops or grid switches... A means of accessible isolation is required for any outlet.. Am I right?

I don't suppose you've come across unswitched socket-outlets before then?

Come on Spin, defending a cooker switch location buried behind pots, pans and god knows what else at the back of a cupboard?? Your far better than that mate!!!

Am I?
Perhaps I would understand your point of view, if you explained why you think it is a particuarly bad idea?

 

[TPES]

I don't suppose you've come across unswitched socket-outlets before then?

Yes many times, I've just fitted 5 in a kitchen, but there all for appliances that will cover the socket, this is why I've fitted a grid switch to isolate each appliance, for many years now I've always seen unswitched sockets with isolation switches elsewhere.

If anything it makes testing a lot easier, nothing worse than testing or fault finding on a kitchen ring and majority of the sockets are hidden

 

[Robinson]

Blimey you lot are up early ! TPES. in long run i do agree with trying where possible and where client is happy to shed out on possible extra work of grids, its better.
But just dont seem to work out that way sometimes . In ref to this thread there is one app a fridge, very easily moved, one socket (above WS) and one spur for extract.(Above WS) plus the debated cooker switches in cupboard. and to be honest there was no room to get anymore up above work surface area.....Its a studio flat for students...cheap as chips job basically. Also this is reason why they want to squeeze the wash machine in bathroom with in a utility cupboard.
Out of interests then if this is the case for washing machine, what about the boiler cupboard in a again what is not much more than a floor to ceiling cupboard within the bathroom >? what about the wiring for that, that in the unit but not 3m away from zone 1. ????



thanks for all your replys guys.....

like a debate

 

[pushrod]

EGBR 5.3.1 gives concise guidance and definitive answer...
Washing machines and tumble dryers may be installed in a bathroom provided they are:
1) installed outside the zones.
2) supplied from a FCU outside the zones or a socket outlet >3m from zone 1.
3) protected by 30mA RCD.
4) permitted for such installation by the manufacturer.
.

Have a look at 701.753 fig d) page 168. A fixed partition stops the extension of the zones unless you are reaching around it - extension 60 cm.
In the same way a large lockable, built in cupboard will also stop the extension of the zone. An appliance inside that cupboard would be deemed outside the zones. It would be a heck of a lot safer than underneath a bath behind the screwed in panel which is also outside the zones! These are special locations because of the increased risk of accidental electric shock.

 

[Engineer54]

Am I?
Perhaps I would understand your point of view, if you explained why you think it is a particuarly bad idea?

I thought i already had explained!!!! A cupboard full of pots, pans and god knows what, is no place to locate a cooker switch at the very back of the cupboard. It's not going to be readily accessable for any reason, without first getting on your hands and knees emptying the cupboard out first!!!

I dunno, ...may be it's me, it's just that commonsense tells me it's about as daft as place as you could think to install it!!! I can't think of a single reason, how anyone could defend such an install either. What would be the code given in such a circumstance, on PIR report, ...perhap IQ could answer that one??

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no requirement in BS7671 for functional or mechanical switching to be readily accessible.
In my experience cookers are very rarely switched off, many require re-setting of clocks and timers if they are switched off.

 

[Engineer54]

Yet another nail in the coffin of commonsense then!!