Multi installs at one site

[Coleman]

Hi chaps
Ive recently priced a job at a farm where the owner has 3 converted barns and wants 4kw on each, which have individual mpan numbers, will he get the high rate tarrif for each property on the one site?

 

[Earthstore]

No, you are only allowed 1 system per name for FIT's, so the other two would be commercial and would attract tax,
So there are many ways to make this work better for the customer.

Also you should apply to the DNO for approval as it is several installs in one area.

I hope this helps.

 

[Eco Deal]

If the barns have diffrent MPANS then thats a diffrent phase so it still G83 ????

I think it would be classed as a 12 kWp if the address is the same even if MPANS are diffrent ????

 

[snoopdog]

Hi chaps
Ive recently priced a job at a farm where the owner has 3 converted barns and wants 4kw on each, which have individual mpan numbers, will he get the high rate tarrif for each property on the one site?

I would have thought that you would get the 21p rate on each of the converted barns as you have have 3 separate installs as you have 3 separate MPAN numbers. Each job would be registered separately and each barn with its own EPC minimum grade D to achieve the higher FIT rate.

If each barn had its own 100amp 3phase supply surely its under G83 and you could slit the systems across each phase yourself without the need for DNO approval.

Finally each barn would be considered commercial and income of the FIT to be declared for possibly taxation, unless one barn was your customer place of residence/ home and a tax free status for that particular system would be achieved

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[Earthstore]

This has cropped up on here recently, if you have multiple intalls in one area you need DNO approval, so I struggle to see how 3 installs on three seperate properties/MPAN's is not a multiple install.

As stated before, if the same person owns all three properties/mpans, then only one system will be tax free.

 

[snoopdog]

This has cropped up on here recently, if you have multiple intalls in one area you need DNO approval, so I struggle to see how 3 installs on three seperate properties/MPAN's is not a multiple install.

As stated before, if the same person owns all three properties/mpans, then only one system will be tax free.

So are you saying a multiple install is more than one , and even if you could establish that you were putting each system on a different phase you would still need prior DNO approval

 

[Earthstore]

I would say that a multiple install is more than one, the problem here is they are separate MPAN's, so it is deffinatly a multiple install,
Now whether it is up to an installer to decide for the customer if it will be fine, or maybe a little call to the DNO may be a good idea, you never know, you may get somebody that is helpful.

As the other 2 systems should be commercial, there could be some benefits for the customer, as I put before, you need to do your sums..

I hope this helps.

 

[PvNewbie]

What's the tax situation the if it's a 'domestic' farm as opposed to a commercially operating one? Separate MPANS, but still a non-commercial farm?

/Newb

 

[ktech]

You may get away with it but I would expect it would get classed as one site , like we have had happen before (although we did warn the customer this was likely to happen).
Same post code and grid reference, the different MPAN's don't count for much. A definition of a site does exist somewhere but i can't remember where I have seen it but it is quite clear. Be careful.

 

[PvNewbie]

Are you saying if it was classed as the same site (under the legal definition-yet to find) then it would be subject to tax?

 

[ktech]

Our experience is it would be highly likely to be classed as one system and therefore the tariff that would apply would be for the collective installed capacity, ie. if it added up to 14kWp you would be on the >10kWp tariff.
Not 100% on the tax side as my assumption is that it is only taxed if declared as a taxable income (via company accounts or personal return) and has nothing to do with the FiT application. The FiT does not mention tax just asks if customer is VAT registered.

 

[ktech]

For site take a look at http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/Documents1/FIT%20generator%20guidance.pdf page 13

Extract below, not 100% cut and dry as usual but have had a customer caught out with this. I only did a quick search so think is the correct document to look at / most up to date.

2.4. "Site" is defined as:
"the premises to which are attached one or more accredited FIT installations or
eligible installations in close geographical proximity to each other, to be determined
as required by the Authority by reference to:
The relevant Meter Point Administration Number (MPAN) for electricity supply
Street address
OS grid reference

and any other factors which the authority at its discretion views as relevant."

 

[dansk]

Dno application would be under g83 stage 2, if connection is to 3 different supplys. that is 3 x 3 phase supplies to each barn. not if it was 3 phase to farm then 1 phase per barn this would be stage 1.

 

[Earthstore]

The OP states that they are 3 barn conversions, with 3 separate supplies, one would assume that each one would have it's own address, and attract council tax separately too.
So therefore, 3 separate installs, so a multiple install, it just happens that one person owns all three, so this has tax implications.

Sorry chaps, everybody seems to have very different opinions on what 3 separate properties are, just because they used to be barns, and they are owned by one person.
If the OP works this out correctly, it could benefit the customer, as he could return his capital much sooner than a domestic.

I have tried, but I give up on this one, sorry.

 

[TedM]

There are three mostly independent issues here and each needs to be considered separately:

1. G83 - does the DNO consider the supply to be 3 phase or 3 x single phase?
If it is considered 3 phase then you can install up to 11.04 kW under G83/1-1 Stage 1 without prior notification - over that and you need to ask permission.

However if it is 3 separate supplies then you will need to pre-notify under G83/1-1 Stage 2 for multiple installs in close geographic proximity even if you are below the 16A limit per phase. If you are going over 16A per phase then the DNO may ask you to comply with G59.

The only way you will find the answer to this one is to ask the DNO.

2. FiTs tariff. (ktech has posted the reference) The FiTs definition of 'site' is crucial and will affect whether this is treated as 3x4kW or 1x12kW for the purposes of setting the tariff. The address and MPAN is a guide but not an absolute one. The owner will be taking a risk if he expects to get 3x21p and doesn't. If it is 1 site then only one property would need an EPC 'D'. If it is 3 sites then each property would need an EPC 'D'.

There is no way to predict this with 100% accuracy beforehand. OFGEM refuse to help with this as well.

3. Tax - I presume the owner cannot be occupying all 3 dwellings so I would expect that they will have to declare and pay tax on the income for some or possibly all of this. If they are running this venture as a business then all of it will be taxable income.

If it is at all complicated then you need to consult a tax accountant. The owner may already have one.

As I say these are three more or less completely separate areas that need to be addressed before you can quote a return with any confidence.