Multiple tails from cut out ?

[rsmck]

We've recently bought a property which needs rewired - I'm not an electrician by trade but have a good understanding of electrics and am brushing up on the 17th edition - we intend to do much of the work ourselves partially as a cash-saving exercise but also for the experience (i've rewired part of a flat before, never a full house!)

Having not moved in yet I only have one small photo of the existing installation (attached) and i'm a little confused by the 4 tails that appear to come from the cut out where I'd normally only expect two.

It's also very hard to determine the earthing arrangement - TT seems likely but the earth conductor does disappear down the same hole at the supply cable comes from so I can't see where it goes from there (it could be connected to something for equipotential bonding)

Can anyone think of a reason there may be two sets of tails from the cut out ?

The intention is to rewire entirely and fit a 100A isolator after the meter to facilitate easier isolation in the future and a new 17th Edition compliant CU - all existing will be replaced as much of it is rubber rather than PVC and is degraded visibly in various places, especially the attic.

 

[rsmck]

The (horizontal) soldered silver cable isn't connected to anything the green/yellow cable runs into the basement and down the full length of the (visible bit of) basement wall. Some of the existing owners possessions obstruct access at the moment so it's hard to trace fully ... hence the confusion, and why I thought it could be TT...

The apparently unmetered tails were more of a concern

 

[paturback]

The (horizontal) soldered silver cable isn't connected to anything the green/yellow cable runs into the basement and down the full length of the (visible bit of) basement wall. Some of the existing owners possessions obstruct access at the moment so it's hard to trace fully ... hence the confusion, and why I thought it could be TT...

The apparently unmetered tails were more of a concern

Yes i was going to say have you done a Ze test at origin, but given that you say your not an electrician and you've just bought the place i would'nt touch it as those unmetered tails alone could land you jail or with a hefty fine so yes get on to your DNO asap I'm sure they will be round pretty quick if you mention the tails and they will confirm the type of supply.

 

[rsmck]

Not done any Ze test, haven't occupied the place yet ... Will contact the DNO when I move in and see what they have to say about those tails..

 

[Engineer54]

The (horizontal) soldered silver cable isn't connected to anything the green/yellow cable runs into the basement and down the full length of the (visible bit of) basement wall. Some of the existing owners possessions obstruct access at the moment so it's hard to trace fully ... hence the confusion, and why I thought it could be TT...

The apparently unmetered tails were more of a concern

So what is the G/Yellow cable connected too here?? This cable could well be a bonding cable connected to a water or gas incoming supply pipe, or linked between both?? The only way to check if that DNO cables earth connection is still good, or has gone bad is by testing....

 

[rsmck]

Don't have access to the property until we move now.. Will get the DNO to come and do a load check anyway and hopefully they can advise.

Annoyingly Scottish Power now seem to insist that the only way you can change a CU now is to have them fit an 100A DP Isolator and that they no longer offer to disconnect and reconnect + reseal the supply fuse when requested as they used to. I had always intended to install the 100A DP Isolator at the same time as the new CU anyway.

Having spoken to SP Energy Networks they confirmed they've seen a few semi-detached properties where the adjoining property is supplied in a way similar to how i've shown above and that it's up to the adjoining property owner if they wish to pay for their own connection. If this is the case can anyone advise where I stand ? I'm not best pleased about my supply fuse feeding them too, nor that a (from initial observations) potentially underrated cable is running under my floor to feed a neighbouring property! Surely it should be the DNOs responsibility to ensure both properties are supplied appropriately?

(off-topic but the 100A isolator installed in my current property (new build 2004) which is marked clearly "Property of Scottish Power" is, I believe, wired wrongly anyway, only the live conductor is switched with the neutral bypassing it entirely... kind of defeats the purpose of a double pole isolator... and this is the service you get for your £200ish charge for fitting an isolator??

 

[aptsys]

Having spoken to SP Energy Networks they confirmed they've seen a few semi-detached properties where the adjoining property is supplied in a way similar to how i've shown above and that it's up to the adjoining property owner if they wish to pay for their own connection. If this is the case can anyone advise where I stand ?

Thousands of semi detached homes have their supply fed from the adjoining house. Technically there is no problem with this, and the DNO will not do anything about it without being paid. However, it shouldn't cause you any concern unless the feed to next door is damaged. It could be an issue for next door if they rely on a connection in your house for earth as you could easily disconnect them...

 

[malcolmsanford]

I think when you move you you should invite your neighbour in for a welcome drink if you do find that those 2nd tails are feeding the next door property, they look maximum 6mm or 7/.044 imperial or even 4mm 7/.036 imperial, and I would imagine SP might change them for something a little bigger FOC.

 

[rsmck]

Surely it should be split to feed the neighbours, if this is the case here, before the supply fuse (with a suitably rated incoming cable obviously) and they should have their own supply fuse... otherwise since this appears to be an 80A fuse there's a considerable chance that following the installation of additional sockets, a modern kitchen with appliances etc that the combined load of both properties will blow that fuse.

We'll see what Scottish Power say but I'd disagree that there's no problem, I'd rather not have cables that I have no control over what's on the other end of running through my basement - particularly when there's the potential they are not suitable for the load that could be on the other end of them (especially if the neighbouring property decides to add something like a new kitchen and 10kW electric shower next week )

 

[rsmck]

I think when you move you you should invite your neighbour in for a welcome drink

That was always the plan anyway - suppose we can hope they know a little about electrics (my more elderly relatives wouldn't care if it was 2mm or 25mm as long as their lights worked ) and hopefully they'll let us have a look at their own meter cupboard... after all this chances are they have their own supply... which leaves me with two tails that go, well, somewhere...

 

[malcolmsanford]

I still IMO think you have an illigal tap off there, Your tails look like they are 16mm or 7/.064 imperial and I can't imagine even years ago the DNO fitting proper size tails to your meter less than a metre in distance and then running those small cable through your house into next door and their meter.

I may be wrong, often am lol,

 

[rsmck]

To drag this one up again, I think this is feeding the neighbours (although I've not had a chance to speak to them yet) based on a similar property on the same street (owned by a family member) which is on the "other" side of the semi .. which appears to be being fed by a similarly sized cable from the neighbouring property (see attached image, again this is a similar installation - not the other side of the one above) but it seems reasonable to believe they would have been done the same way...

Needless to say I still have a concern that a cable this size, which may have been suitable for a typical 1950s electricity user, is now supplying a modern family in a three bed home and that we will increase the load on the supply with the installation of a new kitchen, bathroom etc and modern appliances. Also the family member (who's on the other side of a connection like this) is in a similar situation if the property next door changes hands and the new owner fits a more modern electrical installation.

The DNO will come out and look at it after we occupy the property but say it would be up to the neighbouring property to pay for a new connection if they wanted one - I'm concerned an (old) cable that thickness running through my property poses a risk, but this seems to be being ignored.

 

[nickblake]

Don't have access to the property until we move now.. Will get the DNO to come and do a load check anyway and hopefully they can advise.

Annoyingly Scottish Power now seem to insist that the only way you can change a CU now is to have them fit an 100A DP Isolator and that they no longer offer to disconnect and reconnect + reseal the supply fuse when requested as they used to. I had always intended to install the 100A DP Isolator at the same time as the new CU anyway.

Having spoken to SP Energy Networks they confirmed they've seen a few semi-detached properties where the adjoining property is supplied in a way similar to how i've shown above and that it's up to the adjoining property owner if they wish to pay for their own connection. If this is the case can anyone advise where I stand ? I'm not best pleased about my supply fuse feeding them too, nor that a (from initial observations) potentially underrated cable is running under my floor to feed a neighbouring property! Surely it should be the DNOs responsibility to ensure both properties are supplied appropriately?

(off-topic but the 100A isolator installed in my current property (new build 2004) which is marked clearly "Property of Scottish Power" is, I believe, wired wrongly anyway, only the live conductor is switched with the neutral bypassing it entirely... kind of defeats the purpose of a double pole isolator... and this is the service you get for your £200ish charge for fitting an isolator??

They do if you give them hell , and fit an isolator at the same time , biggest problem is trying to get them out in the first plase 4 months later im still waiting for them to relocate the meters and cut out ,looking at the cut out it looks like a TNS system you can see the earth from the sheath Ze test will confirm that ,what you could do is have a word with a local spark see if he could monitor your work in stages then test on completeion , most sparks will not test other people work , speak to lab for advice

 

[Engineer54]

The DNO will come out and look at it after we occupy the property but say it would be up to the neighbouring property to pay for a new connection if they wanted one - I'm concerned an (old) cable that thickness running through my property poses a risk, but this seems to be being ignored.

I beg to differ, it is the DNOs installation that is wrong, not yours or your neighbours installation, and therefore responsible for any costs incurred rectifying. If you have any trouble with them, contact the ombudsman. There are safety issues here, it's not just the inconvenience problem..
The cut out fuse in your property, should not be supplying/protecting an installation in another privately owned premises !!!

 

[Des 56]

Did you hear a loud buzzing coming from the supply fuse ?
Is there a very strong smell of overheating insulation ?
I very much suspect there will be, after you getting no where through normal channels





At least they would have to come out and take a look, if there was a report


At the very least,a person would have been on the job and a site assessment made

 

[Engineer54]

That normally works... lol!!!