My Dad needs help

[jasonswift]

My 90 year old father has just purchased a new oven and hob and employed a local electrician to fit them. I’ve only ever done minor electrical bits myself, wiring the odd socket but just with my very limited knowledge something doesn’t look right about this guys wiring. I’ve asked if he’s qualified as an electrician and he says “don’t need to be, my mates qualified and he’s going to check it when I’ve finished” I’m guessing this isn’t right for a start?

Back to the wiring. There was an existing 30 amp cable which used to power the old cooker, this has now been wired in to a cooker switch, the type with a big red switch and a separate 13 amp socket. The wire then goes inside the kithen units to a junction box. From the junction box there are two cables, one goes to power the hob and the other goes to a new single 13amp socket to power the new oven.

The oven is rated at 2.35kw the hob is 6kw and Dad has a 2.2kw kettle plugged into the cooker isolator socket, total 10.55kw. This seems to be an awful lot connected to one 30 amp cable.

Besides the cable rating there are a couple of other bits that don’t seem right. The cable from the old cooker wiring to the new cooker isolator isn’t buried in the wall, it’s just clipped to the plaster, it’s exposed above the kitchen units, no covering at all.
The new wiring inside the kitchen unit has also been left exposed and just before it enters the junction box there is a 3 inch length of bare copper earth wire. On top of all this he’s told Dad that the fuse box needs replacing, because it’s “illegal” and that’s going to be £250 just for the parts. The house is only 8 years old and has a very new looking fuse box with circuit breaker type switches, none of those old re-wireable type fuses.

Before I confront this guy I need to know if this wiring is OK and what qualifications are needed to do this sort of work.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[acat]

First and foremost do not make any form of payment until a certificate has been issued for the work carried out. Second the consumer unit is not illegal that is total bull BS7671 which all electricians work to is not a statutory document it a guidance.

You say a 30amp cable do you know what size it is ie 4mm 6mm 10mm.

As for the combined wattage for a cooker you would add 10amps + 30% of remainder and add another 5amps for the socket. I doubt very much if your Dad or anyone else would have everything going at the same time so the above diversity is applied.

Hope that helps


Chris

 

[jasonswift]

Hello

The cable from the fuse box to the cooker switch is 4mm

 

[acat]

4mm clipped direct max is 36 amps quick calc on your useage including kettle is 27amps 30amp mcb would have to stay. Personally I would upgrade cable to 6mm and I would not leave any exposed copper.

Inform the gentleman that you require an NICEIC, ELECSA or NAPIT minor works certificate.


Chris

 

[Des 56]

Before you allow him to change a consumer unit or install any kitchen circuits.your father the householder,
is responsible for complying with part p of the building regs,this is a legal requirement

The person doing that sort of work has to either inform building control before commencing, for them to inspect and charge you, or he has to be a registered competent person(not tested or checked by anyone else) unless he is employed by a competent person
The communities and local government website will provide you with a list of local electricans who are registered as competent persons who can self certificate for part p, without then having to go through the building control
A theoretical large fine is possible for non compliance,so anything you decide, do it by the book

Cables with exposed inner cores protruding at a junction box do not comply with regulations
A single isolator for 2 cooking appliances is permitted (there is a max distance involved)
Clipping the cable to a wall above the worktop is permitted,as long as it is not affected by heat off the cooker or mechanical damage (It would look a naff job to do so though)

Concerns about the supply cable and Mcb can usually only be answered by a competent spark doing the job,because of various means of calculating current carrying capacities and the actual cable loads and the size of the protective device needed etc

 

[JamesBrownLive]

As for the combined wattage for a cooker you would add 10amps + 30% of remainder and add another 5amps for the socket. I doubt very much if your Dad or anyone else would have everything going at the same time so the above diversity is applied.

I don't understand the logic behind the diversity for cooker circuits. Come Xmas or at some other point in the year for a family meal, it would not be uncommon to have all parts of the oven workng at once.

In Jason's example, that would be a load of 45.87A, if you ignore Diversity.

I just wonder what the cost saving is, between installing a circuit that fits the 'Diversity' approach, and one that fits a 'Worst case scenario' and if it is really worth it

 

[mechelec]

so effectivly he has spured a socket from the cooker circuit. what size is the wire from the JB to the socket. It would need to be at least 4mm on a 30A breaker. Maybe he had run out of earth sleeving

 

[mars6394]

this is a complete joke why do i pay for my competent person scheme erm im not qualified but my mate is what a load of old sh*t anyone can say that get an electrician at least u know the work is correctly installed tel him to jump back on his high horse and gallop to where he come from

 

[nickblake]

100% agree with a cat upgrade the cable to 6mm ,i do get soo p*****d of when people say its illegal .. all a pro spark can do is recomend an upgrade ,some of the early wylex distboards that have a wooden frame at the back do require replacing this is due to the fact that if a fault developes within the board there is a risk of the wood catching fire ,why do they do it especialy to older people ,another part of the reason for upgrading a dist board especially for the elderly is its so easy to reset not having to fiddle round with fuse wire sorry about the rant just hate sparks who give good sparks a bad name grrrr

 

[pushrod]

I don't understand the logic behind the diversity for cooker circuits. Come Xmas or at some other point in the year for a family meal, it would not be uncommon to have all parts of the oven workng at once.

In Jason's example, that would be a load of 45.87A, if you ignore Diversity.

I just wonder what the cost saving is, between installing a circuit that fits the 'Diversity' approach, and one that fits a 'Worst case scenario' and if it is really worth it

As it is relevant to the OP - when the cooker is on max temperature it is not continuously using max power as it is just maintaining a temperature that it has already reached. A higher average current drain would be more likely when heating up to that temp , which would be a relatively shorter time. Also cabling and MCBs have a bit of leeway built into them so there isn't a problem if they are briefly operating around or just above their max.

Mind thinking about a different socket for the kettle on xmas day mightn't be a bad idea

 

[Brian Boyd]

Inform the gentleman that you require an NICEIC, ELECSA or NAPIT minor works certificate.


I`m not registered with any of these as i`ve only been out on my own since Aug last year. This means that i`m only just by the 6 month min trading time by NICEIC. I`m using their non approved certificates for all my work as enrollment will happen but i need the work to keep coming til i achieve this and everyone driving towards using registered contractors is makin it hard. I think we should be allowed to enroll for 1st 6 months with checks at end of every month or something.

Whats the true understanding of instructed person under BS7671 2008? Is this the grey area this cooker monkey is hiding behind. Until its illegal for the unqualified to do things like this it will keep happening.

 

[JUD]

Inform the gentleman that you require an NICEIC, ELECSA or NAPIT minor works certificate.


I`m not registered with any of these as i`ve only been out on my own since Aug last year. This means that i`m only just by the 6 month min trading time by NICEIC. I`m using their non approved certificates for all my work as enrollment will happen but i need the work to keep coming til i achieve this and everyone driving towards using registered contractors is makin it hard. I think we should be allowed to enroll for 1st 6 months with checks at end of every month or something.

Whats the true understanding of instructed person under BS7671 2008? Is this the grey area this cooker monkey is hiding behind. Until its illegal for the unqualified to do things like this it will keep happening.

I think you'll find it's 12 months minimum trading before you can register with NICEIC:

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File2294.pdf

Elecsa don't have a minimum.

You can register with them straight away.

Not sure about the others.

 

[marcshaw]

just adding to all of this, if the guy doing the work is using someone's certs I would get the cert before payment then pay, and after that go to the registered body the cert is from (NICEIC NAPIC ELECSA) etc as the company responsible for the cert will have to put anything wrong right at their cost. Pay by cheque, made payable to the contractor named on the cert too. This will help with any claim or complaint. I hate it that (SOME) registered contractors are putting certs on non qualified and dangerous works. Its makes being compliant a joke sometimes.

 

[marcshaw]

I meant niceic NAPIT elecsa (not napic)!!

 

[Brian Boyd]

I think you'll find it's 12 months minimum trading before you can register with NICEIC:

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File2294.pdf

Elecsa don't have a minimum.

You can register with them straight away.

Not sure about the others.

Check out registratation for NICEICNI the northern Ireland branch is 6 months and the rest are pretty much unheard of.