My House is Falling Down (C4 last night) | Page 3 | on ElectriciansForums

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Who saw Sarah Beeny last night on My House is Falling Down?

Electrics were briefly mentioned and an indication of ÂŁ4K was given for a rewire of a 3 bed semi - which I thought was quite realistic if its basic fittings and nothing fancy.

Your thoughts......
 
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Very easy to pick and choose, and then take the quotes out of context

Not really out of context though were they? I've never read such a contradictory argument!

We're also not talking about firearms (one word) or soldiers with firearms here

Did I not make the word analogy clear enough?

Thank god you'll not get your way, the electrical manufacturing industry will stop that in its tracks

I'm sure they will, such is the greed of the big, established industries you talk about. They'd rather keep selling to numpties and watch them kill themselves and each other and burn thousands of houses down each year than just be a bit more selective about who they sell their product to.

I can't think of any civilised country anywhere, that restricts the sale of electrical materials to qualified electricians

Canada

Gas Reg's are a little different aren't they, ....that stuff brings down whole buildings by an explosive action. Surely your not saying that electrics should be seen or regarded in the same class of domestic hazard

Yes, I am. How many houses have you heard of recently exploding because of a faulty gas installation? Now tell me how many houses burn down each year because of faulty wiring? I think you'll find that the statistics for the latter far outweigh the statistics for the former.

I have no time for those wanting to restrict my own or others freedoms to suit their interests

This idea of yours about 'restricting freedoms' is not very well thought through. Fortunately we don't live in a free country because if we did, we'd all be free to go around doing whatever we pleased! Robbing houses, killing whoever we want etc... etc...

you're talking about ''perceived'' dangers that are taken out of their real context

You are talking nonsense. What has perception of any kind got to do with this argument?! There is no perception, just raw evidence. Statistics are available and they fully support my case! Electricity kills! End of. Don't let anyone near it who doesn't know what they're doing!

I for one am for laws that mean less people die and less houses get burnt down each year. I can't believe you would oppose that?
 
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I'll be totally honest here when I say I'd relish a restriction on the sale of electrical installation products but only because of reasons of self-interest.

The facts are simple, we don't kill enough people to warrant the strong, expensive (think legal actions on restrictions of trade from all electrical retailers)legislation that would be required.

The electrical accident/fatality figures are distorted beyond all recognition by the inclusion of incidents concerning electrical appliances as well as wiring.

Statistics : Electrical Safety Council

When it comes to gas, the deaths from carbon monoxide poisoning alone are almost equal to deaths by electrocution, add in the gas explosion deaths and property damage costs and there really is no comparison.

It's for these reasons that we'll probably never have a GasSafe type scheme here in the UK or any stronger legislation.
 
50 deaths per year due to CO poisoning, zero deaths per year due to gas explosions or fires caused by gas explosions.

250-300 deaths per year from electrical house fires alone. Plus another 30 from electrocution.

For me there is no contest.

Say no to DIY electrical work!
 
50 deaths per year due to CO poisoning, zero deaths per year due to gas explosions or fires caused by gas explosions.

250-300 deaths per year from electrical house fires alone. Plus another 30 from electrocution.

For me there is no contest.


Say no to DIY electrical work!


There's a bit more to the gas stat's : http://www.gas-safety-trust.org.uk/sites/default/files/resources/gst-didr-2010-v5.pdf

There's a bit more to the gas stat's : http://www.gas-safety-trust.org.uk/sites/default/files/resources/gst-didr-2010-v5.pdf

Like I said, I'd love to see a retail ban but we have to be realistic, it takes exceptional circumstances to cause an electrical injury-look at the nightmare situations that we come across day in and day out yet they exist in homes and businesses all over the UK, mostly for decades without incident.

Look at the thread by Durhamsparky http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...forum/37006-never-seen-some-where-so-bad.html
 
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I don't think this is so much an American-style argument of a British person's 'right' to do electrical work in his home, it's more that for years people have done DIY electrics, some to a very high standard, mostly without incident, and no government who isn't intent on getting voted out in the next election would suddenly try to make that illegal.
How would you enforce it anyway? The people who are going to do it themselves are going to do it anyway, regardless of what legislation is in place. There will always be a sparky or wholesaler who sees an opening for selling direct to the public on some kind of 'black market'; maybe he's got kids to feed. It's not like you can monitor what's going on inside people's homes and go and kick the door down if they haven't paid a professional to service their electrics.

The best way to get someone to do something is always to make them want to do it rather than to introduce an extra bit of legislation that forbids them from doing it - if it's just as easy and a similar price to get someone in, wouldn't you do that instead of risking messing it up yourself?
I would imagine the main reason people hire tradesmen is because they don't know how to do the job themselves - a trend I can see becoming more prevalent as DIY skills are lost - I expect most peoples' dad or grandad could wire, plumb, wallpaper, tile their own house, strip down and put together an engine, build a shed from scratch etc, while young homeowners nowadays would get a sense of satisfaction from opening a tin of paint and sloshing it on the walls. Even the most basic electrical tasks are becoming less common - when I was a kid electrical appliances didn't come with plugs on them, you had to put your own on, while nowadays they all come with moulded plugs on them. With the introduction of LED lamps I can even see changing a lightbulb becoming a thing of the past - the householder would probably just get the whole fitting changed for the latest trendy one.

What each of us can do on an individual level is to make the customer's experience as pleasant as possible - turn up on time, treat the customer's home with respect, price the job clearly with no extra charges or nasty surprises, don't rip them off or try to confuse them... Usual stuff really.
What the government/regulatory body/media can do is to make the public aware of the potential dangers of doing DIY electrical work. They've done it with alcohol, smoking, safe sex etc, so it should be easy enough to raise awareness of electrical safety, ie don't just guess, get someone in.

As for a national electricians' register I don't think householders are aware of the difference between 17th edition, part P, NICEIC registered etc and adding an extra organisation to all of those would just add confusion for the householder, expense for the legitimate electrician and an advantage for the handyman/cowboy. What would make it easier for everyone is if electricians were able to produce a card displaying their competence with an expiry date on it.

There has already been one of those around for years....
 
Engineer 54 quote
The only real requirement for domestic properties that should be made a legal requirement, is that all properties can only be sold or rented with a full inspection/test report that must reach a certain standard.....


This is realistic, and I agree, but with expanded aims

Is all well and good to have aims or targets regarding the industry that maintain standards of installations and the persons who do the work
Its also worth pondering what would be realistic targets

Whether you consider sales restrictions, or raising the bar of installer standards (whether Diyers or electricians) The aims need to be backed up by the realities of economic interests,political will, and what regulation is percieved to be justified, by the politicians

There is little in the way of injury or death, or fire, that puts the subject on the agenda of any politicians list

Regulate test and inspection by experienced competent electricians on a national graded register,make compulsory safety assessments for rented property house sales and insurance purposes
It will do what regulating installation as failed to do,it will leave installation to anyone who wishes to do that installation

The likes of niceic elecsa and napit can still play a part, by being organisations that are voluntary for electricians to join,the customer has a choice of doing it themselves or getting a scheme member,but eventually,the installation has to be assessed by a registered person
 
Not really out of context though were they? I've never read such a contradictory argument!

That's because, that's exactly what you were doing, taking quotes from my post and putting your own context to them...



Did I not make the word analogy clear enough?

Oh yes, very clear, just so far out the window to be meaningless to this debate, and that needed to be pointed out...



I'm sure they will, such is the greed of the big, established industries you talk about. They'd rather keep selling to numpties and watch them kill themselves and each other and burn thousands of houses down each year than just be a bit more selective about who they sell their product to.

A bit more selective???? ..... don't you mean ONLY electricians?? Or maybe you want to go further, and make it only electricians holding a scammers card can purchase domestic electrical materials!!!



Canada

I'll check that later...



Yes, I am. How many houses have you heard of recently exploding because of a faulty gas installation? Now tell me how many houses burn down each year because of faulty wiring? I think you'll find that the statistics for the latter far outweigh the statistics for the former.

Oh dear, those dammed Statistics Again!!





This idea of yours about 'restricting freedoms' is not very well thought through. Fortunately we don't live in a free country because if we did, we'd all be free to go around doing whatever we pleased! Robbing houses, killing whoever we want etc... etc...

Obviously you have never been outside of the UK except to sunny Spain for your hols. If you had been to countries where Freedoms are in very short supply, perhaps you would change your mind a little on that misinformed statement!!



You are talking nonsense. What has perception of any kind got to do with this argument?! There is no perception, just raw evidence. Statistics are available and they fully support my case! Electricity kills! End of. Don't let anyone near it who doesn't know what they're doing!

You have no idea what ''raw evidence'' is!! Your perception has everything to do with it, your perception is that every homeowner is a numpty, devoid of commonsense and dangerous if they go anywhere near anything electrical!!

And how are you to know if someone knows or not, geezus banned from wiring a plug top, or changing a light switch cause he hasn't got an electrical qualification!!

I for one am for laws that mean less people die and less houses get burnt down each year. I can't believe you would oppose that?



Sorry, but i think your just another scaremonger, that wants to wrap Joe public up in ledgistration to suit your own interests and ideals. As i indicated, it's never going happen for the foreseeable future and probably even beyond.


No, i'm not talking nonsense at all, the real nonsense, is you believing in statistics, it's about as far away from ''Raw Evidence'' as you could possibly get!! You can take the same statistics your quoting and make it say the exact opposite, and that IS a RAW fact!!!

I think your for these draconian laws or such ledgistration, not because of deaths or fires, your for them because of personal gain because you believe it will increase your income. The deaths and fires are a convienient angle for you to use. No-ones saying there aren't such instances, there obviously are, but not in the numbers you would be hoping for. I'm dammed sure all are not caused by idiots or numpties that are dabbling with their electrics either. What i DO oppose, ...is unwanted restrictions being imposed on me as part of the vast majority, for the wrong doings of the very few. An those very few will NOT be stopped by any laws or restrictive ledgistration, and you can take that to the Bank!!!

Pointless continuing this debate with you. We all have our different opinions and views, i acknowledge yours, i just don't agree with you this time. As we will never see eye to eye on this matter, so better just to agree to disagree this time...
 
It's clear that you are just a misinformed arrogant nobody, so much so that there is just no arguing with you. I don't really want to engage in any more debate with such a massive ignoramus however while I'm writing this post, I'll just clear up one or two of your ridiculously, outlandish conclusions.

That's because, that's exactly what you were doing, taking quotes from my post and putting your own context to them...

Clearly not, I just quoted exactly what you said, I didn't need to add anything or put any context to them at all to show how contradictive your argument was.

Or maybe you want to go further, and make it only electricians holding a scammers card

Like I've said before, I'm just as opposed to scam schemes as you, but you have this habit of making an argument out of nothing. I think you may need glasses, either that or learn to read.

Obviously you have never been outside of the UK except to sunny Spain for your hols. If you had been to countries where Freedoms are in very short supply, perhaps you would change your mind a little on that misinformed statement!!

Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, UAE, Kenya, Nigeria, South America, Australia, Canada, America and pretty much all of Europe. I think this counts as leaving the UK doesn't it? I've seen things you could never even imagine so I stand by my statement and certainly wouldn't consider myself misinformed. You on the other hand are the one banging on about freedom and yet you choose to live/work in a country that is famous for its lack of it!

You have no idea what ''raw evidence'' is!! Your perception has everything to do with it, your perception is that every homeowner is a numpty, devoid of commonsense and dangerous if they go anywhere near anything electrical!!

I never said such a thing, that my freind is nothing but a pure fabrication. What I have said, is that the general public should be treated as having no knowledge on the subject of electricity until they can prove otherwise.

Like I said, I won't be wasting any more of my time answering to your childish and ill informed arguments and neither will I be agreeing to disagree, what I will be doing however is feeling sorry that you haven't recieved the education you clearly needed to be able to put forward a sensible and reasoned argument.
 
It's clear that you are just a misinformed arrogant nobody, so much so that there is just no arguing with you. I don't really want to engage in any more debate with such a massive ignoramus however while I'm writing this post, I'll just clear up one or two of your ridiculously, outlandish conclusions.





Clearly not, I just quoted exactly what you said, I didn't need to add anything or put any context to them at all to show how contradictive your argument was.



Like I've said before, I'm just as opposed to scam schemes as you, but you have this habit of making an argument out of nothing. I think you may need glasses, either that or learn to read.



Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, UAE, Kenya, Nigeria, South America, Australia, Canada, America and pretty much all of Europe. I think this counts as leaving the UK doesn't it? I've seen things you could never even imagine so I stand by my statement and certainly wouldn't consider myself misinformed. You on the other hand are the one banging on about freedom and yet you choose to live/work in a country that is famous for its lack of it!



I never said such a thing, that my freind is nothing but a pure fabrication. What I have said, is that the general public should be treated as having no knowledge on the subject of electricity until they can prove otherwise.

Like I said, I won't be wasting any more of my time answering to your childish and ill informed arguments and neither will I be agreeing to disagree, what I will be doing however is feeling sorry that you haven't recieved the education you clearly needed to be able to put forward a sensible and reasoned argument.

Come on, it's a forum, if we all agreed, there's be no debate!

You can leave the personal insults out too, the moderators (quite rightly) don't take too kindly to that here.
 
Please could you point me to these insults you wish to accuse me of? I have done nothing but point out observations IQ, observations of Engineers arrogance, nothing more.

I'm more than happy to debate, I like a debate, what I don't have to put up with however is being force fed twoddle by arrogant people like Engineer54. I find it insulting when I'm constantly told how I'm misinformed I am when I seem to be the only person being reasonable. I also don't like it when people can't be truthful and accuse me of writing things I haven't. I also find it insulting how quickly he/she can jump to conclusions about my life when he/she doesn't even know me. I find Engineers bombastic and arrogant attitude offensive but I'm not going to complain, I'm just not going to take any notice.
 
Haha, You really do take the biscuit!!! You have been personal from your very first post, and the aggression has been building ever since...

If by my arrogance, you mean that i'm not going to be misquoted and the like, or spoon fed unrelated dribble and your facts that are based on dammed statistics your dead right!!!

As for your truthfulness in what you have written, as an example, ...try this Quote : post 27 ''I believe that carrying out any electrical work in the home without the relevant qualifications should be illegal'' That is what i replied too, so far from accusing you of what you haven't written, i think i was quite accurate!! There are more, i'll let you and others find your contradictions, of what you wrote, but then again, ...didn't!!!

As for being travelled, ...and in some rather restrictive type countries too, then i am at a total loss, as to why you would want to impose any more restrictive measures in the UK, than we already have??? Unless you see it as a means of benifit to yourself, ...that i Can understand!!

I think you should re-read some of your own posts on this thread, you'll find real arrogance in all of them... what do they say about about the pot calling the kettle black??

Oh, and contra to your accusations in your posts here, my education and professional education has served me very well over the years, thou i do cut corners on forums and on the internet generally.... Ah maybe that was one of your attempted insults at me, ....That pot and the kettle thing again!!

I really can't be arsed anymore, no time for this type of wining and dribble...
 
Who saw Sarah Beeny last night on My House is Falling Down?

Electrics were briefly mentioned and an indication of ÂŁ4K was given for a rewire of a 3 bed semi - which I thought was quite realistic if its basic fittings and nothing fancy.

Your thoughts......



And a very good post it was too Murdoch....:cool3:
 

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