Neutral to earth faults | on ElectriciansForums

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E

Eddiesparks

So since the advent of rcds, these have become more highlighted.

This has been bugging me lately. In my mind the reason why neutral to earth faults are a problem is because the cpc has a smaller csa than the neutral

Also if you lost the neutral at the supply then mains voltage would be present (minus load resistance's volt drop) at all exposed conductive parts. What other reasons are there? Thanks for help in advance.
 
Well as you said having possible mains voltage at exposed conductive parts! ... do you really need more reasons :drunk:.

The other issue is which you touched on is a loss of N where a N/E fault is present will redirect possible the full N load of a sub-main or installation down a final circuit earth wire.. this will melt all the conductors together take out the OL protection of that final circuit and it will continue to route the N current and give a high risk of fire.

Lastly if N is lost at substation then a floating N will be created and up to 400 v could be the potential between N and L of your single phase supply as is often found damaging your electric goods when someone steals the N/E centre tap in the sub station.
 
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Its not a problem out on supply side is it, N&E are combined and then separated at supply cutout. What does smaller cpc size have to do with you having an earth fault??

The OP never mentioned the incoming arrangement so maybe TNCS, TNS or TT ... loss of supply N is a possibility with all these types.. so not understanding your post.
 
This has been bugging me lately. In my mind the reason why neutral to earth faults are a problem is because the cpc has a smaller csa than the neutral

.

Not necessarily, the cpc csa is quite possibly going to be bigger if wired in SWA or steel conduit.
And if it is the problem could possibly be even worse!

Where a neutral to earth connection exists within a circuit a portion of the entire installations neutral currents will flow through that connection.

Consider a lighting circuit wired in 1.5mm and supplier from a board fed at 200A. Introduce a neutral to earth connectikn in the lighting circuit and you could get maybe 100A flowing through that 1.5mm. And RCD will detect this and disconnect the fault.

Now imagine that lighting circuit being protected by a single pole RCBO, the RCBO will detect the fault and disconnect the live but not disconnect the fault.
 
Not necessarily, the cpc csa is quite possibly going to be bigger if wired in SWA or steel conduit.
And if it is the problem could possibly be even worse!

Where a neutral to earth connection exists within a circuit a portion of the entire installations neutral currents will flow through that connection.

Consider a lighting circuit wired in 1.5mm and supplier from a board fed at 200A. Introduce a neutral to earth connectikn in the lighting circuit and you could get maybe 100A flowing through that 1.5mm. And RCD will detect this and disconnect the fault.

Now imagine that lighting circuit being protected by a single pole RCBO, the RCBO will detect the fault and disconnect the live but not disconnect the fault.


Agree with point you're making about overload risk but in your example the neutral current (from rest of installation) that flows through your neutral to earth fault will be proportional to the 1.5mm's resistance compared to the resistance of the big fat neutral supply cable - unlikely to be anything like 100A or 50% of N current.

Assuming fault path is, for example, 6 times the resistance of supply N then it will only carry 1/6 current.

But...of course if the supply neutral is lost then your 1.5mm fault path will attempt to carry ALL the current - 'what's that smell?? lol!
 
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This is from personal experience 35 years ago and shows the dangers of N→E faults. Lifted from an old thread.

A fault I had many years ago in my own house. I’d just installed gas central heating, the very last job for me to do was connect the gas pipe to the gas meter. Touched the two ends of the pipe and got a spark! Not good thought I, well to hell with it jammed the pipe together and soldered the joint. On putting a clamp meter round the pipe found 25A flowing through it :confused: Turned off supply to my house, still 25A, I’m getting confused at this point :confused::confused: I’m confused, the wife is frantic, :mad:no gas or electric now!

Phoned NWEB, and after speaking to one of their engineers was told to keep both supplies turned off, they’ll get back to me. Not 2 minutes later he calls back, we’ll be there in 20 minutes! 4 vans and 2 overhead line wagons showed up! I did live in a rural area so supplies to the road were overhead.

Much head scratching followed, at one point we disconnected the gas meter and slung that out in the back yard. In all seriousness this was the point the gas meter reader showed up :eek:It was decided to disconnect the entire road from the supply. By this time I’m not the flavour of the month with the entire road, we’ve now got 12 houses with out supply.

The OH crew found a burnt line tap on the neutral. Further tests showed a N→E fault some where in one of the 12 houses. As I knew all the neighbors I got delegated to go to each house and isolate the supplies, how come this ended up as my job? Eventually there’s a shout from the OH crew as I isolated the furthest house on the road, “faults gone”.
NWEB senior engineer then goes in to “Hitler” mode, tells my neighbor “unsafe installation your supply will be disconnected until rectified”.

While the OH crew are repairing the connections to the road I hijacked the apprentice that had come with the board and checked through the house. The apprentice found the N→E fault in a socket, the fascia screw had bitten in to the core. OK now neighbors supply can be reconnected as well.

Now think about it the neutral for 12 houses was going through one 3.5mm screw. The house was bonded to the water pipe only. The current traveled along the water pipe until it got to my house, I’d just rewired and fitted CH. So it was a case of if it doesn’t move bond it (14[SUP]th[/SUP] edition), the current then went through my house and out through the gas pipe and mesh*. (I’ve never understood why a steel gas pipe is a better earth than lead water pipe, but it always is.) Just how in the name of god my neighbors house didn’t burn down I’ll never know. The fault must have been there for years.

* The house was on high ground with very shallow top soil. Get down 3’and clang, the rod hit bedrock. I was friends with a local farmer so he excavated most of the back yard and I put a mesh in (I’d recently demolished a substation so bought the mesh as scrap). It still couldn’t match a 50 year old 500’ long 2” steel pipe in what was after all that time in well consolidated ground.
Years later the gas board replaced the pipe with plastic. Didn’t take me long before I’d welded a stud to the redundant pipe and tied it to the mesh. Don’t ask me the reading it’s 25 years since I left that house.
 
The house in question belonged to a good friend so I fitted an up-front RCD for him.

My house was done to the 14[SUP]th[/SUP]. I was regarded as extravagant fitting RCD’s due to the cost then, £65 each (£179 in today’s money).
Two 8 way Wylex 3036 boards each with an upfront Crabtree RCD was seen by colleagues as being a waste of money (so did my new wife). When the plug in MCB’s became available it nearly led to divorce! (That came years later and was a lot more expensive.)

So I’ve fitted RCD’s, where does the fault show up?
It’s the bizarre thing with N→E faults, they’ll send you off on a wild goose chase. Cause and effect can be a long way from each other. It also shows RCD’s aren’t the instant cure all our younger members seem to believe.


One other thing came out of the episode. NWEB replaced all the OH lines and cut-outs. They were bloody dangerous. 11 houses had a 60A cut-out mine 100A. I’d already changed the cut-out to 60A. I came unstuck because I used a Lucy unit, the NWEB didn’t use them. The engineer was laughing as he gave me a -------ing. This was in the days when cutting seals was a hanging offence.
 
Agree with point you're making about overload risk but in your example the neutral current (from rest of installation) that flows through your neutral to earth fault will be proportional to the 1.5mm's resistance compared to the resistance of the big fat neutral supply cable - unlikely to be anything like 100A or 50% of N current.

Assuming fault path is, for example, 6 times the resistance of supply N then it will only carry 1/6 current.

But...of course if the supply neutral is lost then your 1.5mm fault path will attempt to carry ALL the current - 'what's that smell?? lol!

Numbers were of course invented purely to highlight a point.
It does depend a lot on whereabouts in the circuit the fault is, if it's only a couple of feet away from the DB then a lot more current will flow than if it's at the far end of the circuit.
 
Cheers lads. Some interesting stories. Although need more explaining, is it because, in a case of fault of negligible impedance with potential diff betwixt N and Cpc (but very low) this means big current going thru N and CPC? Am i being thick here? Dont answer that actually haha just help me with basics!

Also, with current leakage - Surely the current would take parallel paths thru n and cpc sort of like conductors in a rfc?!
 

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