new shop in leeds

[sparkyork]

hi everyone, just been too look at a nice job in leeds which should give me plenty of work
shop is approx 15m x 35m ish with a mezanine floor at one end.

couple of questions as ive done a bit bit not that much comemrcial stuff.

1. there are going to be a max of 12 refrigerators, do i split this into 3 or 4 circuits or....?

2. 4 air conditioners, thinking of suppliying these seperately
3. small cafe area to the back of the shop, with 3 phase cooker. and a seperate socket circuit just for this area, aswell as its own lighting circuit.
4. thinkin of keeping mezanine sockets and lighting on there own circuits.
5. office with computer on its own socket circuit.
6. tills on there own circuit

that ll do for now, guess you get the idea'ish! dont know what lighting but theres gonna be a lot of it, so im allowing 6 circuits for this. as well as e/lighting circuit.
thinking of using a 36way 3 phase board and after counting circuits so far (not all mentioned here) ive got 29 ways so...

also, down the sides of the shop is wooden display units incorporating the refrigerators etc going all the way down to the bottom. fridges gonna plug in above these units and be out of sight via a pelmet. im thinking of running 2x4" trays down either side of the shop just obove these units and was wondering what the best way of terminating into socket outlets would be? dont wanna run swa everywhere as its all out of sight and in no danger so wanna use standard pvc, (peel off the tray into metal clad sockets/via grommets or...)

also the lighting is gonna run on these trays as well then peel off upwards into conduit going up the wall and across to relevant "clix" outlets for the lighting, again wanna do this in pvc.

your comments suggestions are greatly appreciated

rich

 

[ian.settle1]

What type of shop is it?

 

[sparkyork]

its sort of like a health food shop with yoga rooms and stuff, food stuff downstairs.

 

[wayne]

cant immediately fault any of the above although im sure someone can give you further advice ,looks like your'e going to be busy

 

[tony.towa]

Not trying to teach granny to suck eggs but check on the 'fridges' going down the wall. Some suppliers are now providing units with air con like external units needing an external isolator and they specify the internal connection must be via a BS4343 SP&N interlocked socket.

 

[sparkyork]

yeah looks like im gonna busy for a while!! ill get some pics up of it at the minute, just one big empty concrete box!

good point that tony, ive spoke to customer tonight and ive already asked for the rating of the fridges, so when he gets back to me i can confirm what you mentioned. again it kinda begs the question..if ive got a tray running horizontally down the wall is it gonna be ok running it all in standard T &E and possibly terminating these cables into an isolator then onto bs4343 socket? to be fair im more used to terminating swa into these accesories, but cant see the point in using this when its all out of harms way etc

rich

 

[Spudmiester]

Not trying to teach granny to suck eggs but check on the 'fridges' going down the wall. Some suppliers are now providing units with air con like external units needing an external isolator and they specify the internal connection must be via a BS4343 SP&N interlocked socket.

Tony is correct was going to say the same ! Also the air cons I have done have been three phase and I have just used an Isolator.

 

[lee mcgregor]

hi rich, i currently do quite alot of scotmid shops over scotland ie little "coop shops " with the same ideas we have a seperate board for refridgerators as normally they have this board next to refridgerator control panels and also take up quite alot of room and good i suppose to keep lighting and power in one board also being sub mains seperate earths run to each board , also we put small 10 way board into office with computers i suppose to stop people turning off by mistake,also tills we run 4mm radial clean supplies coming down to tills in chrome poles if coming over ceilings along with a ring main if other sockets are require over others tills for cleaners or any other day to day use, lights: a key switch at front door or however they get in, lighting up a passage to bank of switches for shop or switch with contactors ,refridgerators same idea as above each unit but hidden under pelmets and using either 16a 240 3 pin sockets or 32a 415 5pin sockets depends on size of them i suppose we feed these seperate in swa's all going back to boards on tray, Air cons spurs we put a couple of rings for them . theyve started getting us to extract from above where the bake the bread out onto shop floor as they think customers smelling this helps sell bread etc haha.. lighting through shop we normally use 150w hqi fittings metal halides" jcc made " straight down on shop floors and up aisles and tilting on permiter onto fridges . hope this has helped mate in any way .. heres a pictures of kinda the same fittings (HQI-TS DL150 Downlight) or (HQI-TS DL70 Downlight) 70 w version also used these but would recommend the 150w

 

[sparkyork]

cheers lee really appreciate the input, gonna be speaking to customer 2moro now as its a bit late now. will find out whats going on with the fridges and air con setup, have to agree jcc do some pretty nice fittings as well, infact the customer was in manchester when i last spoke to him seeing about getting the manufacturer to come up with a lighting plan (i was never any good at all the formulae attached to working out height of fittings appossed to lumenicity and all that! lol)

is there anything wrong with using t & e for the supplies for stuff? what conditions generally have to be in place that recommend the use of armoureds? ps dont know if i mentioned but theres gonna be about 12 fridges

cheers everyone

rich

 

[lee mcgregor]

if single phase and out of reach for joe public no dont see why not but if three phase then swa. we also had to wire all t+e in low smoke cable the white ****e thats impossible to strip haha might want to find out as for all shops and council stuff thats what they ask for .

 

[sparkyork]

yeah cool lee, will get some more info 2moro, obviously its early days yet but theres just so much to think about!!
also dont think we'll be going for having seperate consumer units either. dont know whether to rely on the customer to get the info from the council as he's a bit forgetful, might sort that me self in the morning.

forgot to mention....theres a metered supply terminated into a sw/isolator in the commercial unit. customer informs me its a 45kva supply i didnt get chance to have a right good look as i had no steps with me and it was to dark. in peoples experiance and due to.. 45000/400=112.5A and 45000/230=195.6A can i expect it definately to be a 3 phase supply? will find out for definate 2moro but i just need to know now!!

 

[tony.towa]

Know what you mean about lighting formulae and design but I found Illuma do a free CD with lighting design facilities. It's quite easy to use after a bit of practice and if you are using "standard" fittings you can substitute other manufacturers equivalents when the design is done.

 

[sparkyork]

well top marks to those of you that mentioned the 16a bs4343 (commandos)!!

thats exactly what the guy supplying the fridges has said he needs
im hoping to get some gear ordered by tommorrow night so i can start next week. ive asked him to find out the rating of these fridges, is it generally common practice to supply these 4343's with individual radials or.... (suggestions please!!)

he's also got an air con bloke he's seeing tommorow, theres gonna be 4 units alltogether, the bloke supplying them also told him that 3 phase conditioners are more efficient that single phase ones. he asked if this was true? i said i would pressume so as i know 3 phase motors are efficient but again im not 100% on this either.

also been doing a bit of reading in the big red book, im struggling to find formulae for working out cable grouping on a horizontal perferated tray, it states in there that mixing different sized/currents etc can be iffy and that its out of scope of it all?

im thinking of a 6" tray that'll have some lighting feeds on it, power feeds for fridges, till, and thats about it. so long as i keep lighting on one side of tray and power at other and try and maintain a descent gap between it be ok wont it? gonna be a seperate smaller tray for low voltage stuff as well

knows its a long message but ive got a lot on me mind! lol

cheers

 

[tony.towa]

I had a couple of these beasts to install last year. The manufacturer/supplier actually specified individual radial circuits with the interlocked sockets. Whilst they run quite efficiently there is quite a pull on start up. Also, as far as your customer is concerned, a fault occuring on one while the shop is closed will only result in that specific unit "going off" if it trips the breaker, so the majority of the stock is not adversely affected. Remember to check if there an external unit with the fridges. This job is going to keep you active for a while. Nice one.

 

[sparkyork]

cheers matey from what i can gather he had the option of getting external coolers for the fridges but didnt having planning permission for it so isnt bothering.

at the start of your post are you talking about air con or refridgerators?

yeah i agree its gotta be wise running the fridges on seperate radials, what would you use swa, or nice chunky flex? also you can get hold of combined isolating 4343 outlets are these gonna be acceptable?