Shhh - being pedantic 'cos that what it asks for on the minor works form
Note the Zs (and RCD if applicable) results on the job sheet and file it for 7 years then shred it.
Not a million miles away from what I do, only I note them on a MWC.
OK i will be honest, some might not. If a customer rings me with a broken socket, switch stuck or face cracked, for example. I will swap it out, do a continuity test at the socket while de-energised, do a Zs when back up. Check CU damage/bonding/earth. Make appropriate suggestions if relevant, charge for the swap. No MWC. Job was to swap socket, that's all, local handyman could have done it, legally.
H
hightower
And if a handy man was doing it he'd be required to complete a MWC if he was complying with BS 7671
W
Wilko
I read BYB part 2 where Minor Works are defined as "additions and alterations to an installation that do not extend to the provision of a new circuit". So to me, the like-for-like maintenance replacement of a cracked outlet in Sparks post #84 isn't a Minor Works. But I am always happy to learn
Edit : filling out a MWC can be done for this work, but I don't think it has to be (?) We are always required to to do "appropriate inspection and testing" of any work.
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Last time I gave a (admittedly elderly) customer a MWC for a minor job, they looked at me blankly, in a mild state of panic. "What do I have to do with this?" they said. "Oh just put it with all your other important household documents" I told them. "Is it an important document then?" he said, even more worried. What can you say? For a socket change?
If it wasn't printed both sides i suppose they could use it for the ASDA list. I think I will just carry on not complying personally.
How are you not complying with BS7671 if you don't supply a minor works for changing a socket like for like?
I think it is a matter of personal preference, you could argue it is not required and visa versa. We always provide one as a record of works carried out with the only test not generally carried out being IR between line/neutral. I suppose in the future should something happen to someone using the socket, you have proof that you carried out the minimum of required tests. Without this you can only verbally insist it was okay at the time of replacement.
True I do plenty of family "freebies".
H
hightower
I'm not saying you're not speaking logically, in fact quite the opposite. I just always understood that a cert of some kind was required for ANY electrical work.
Probably is. How an individual operates is up to them I think. I do find it a bit odd when people worry about what may happen in the future, following things like a socket change. it's just a socket, or a switch, or a light fitting, what can go wrong, other than it getting damaged? And how would the future "enquiry" know which socket was replaced anyway?
B
If you change a socket for example and there's no rcd protection a lot could go wrong. As I said earlier, I charge for the hour anyway so why not just change the socket and carry a couple of relevant tests? The mwc is a simple 1 page doc that takes a couple of minuets to fill out on which you can put any observations on the existing installation. I'm still out of there in 1/2 hour and that's with a cuppa.
Be specific, "replace broken socket in hallway" for example. Hopefully nothing will go wrong and obviously over a period of time a MWC may be negated anyway.
Of course a mwc could be lost, so could the invoice.
Don't forget the origin of this debate, someone asked if you would do a like for like swap of a socket if there was no rcd protection. In that situation I feel you need to issue a mwc mainly to record your observations. I'm still not sure why you wouldn't.
Don't forget the origin of this debate, someone asked if you would do a like for like swap of a socket if there was no rcd protection. In that situation I feel you need to issue a mwc mainly to record your observations. I'm still not sure why you wouldn't.
I did post a similar question about Minor Works for accessory replacement on domestic installations (on another forum), and it was 50-50 split. The pros quoted demonstrating what you have done, limiting litigation or blame should things go wrong, rental properties, dodgy properties, the fact it doesn't take up huge amount of time and just being a plan ol' professional electrician p). The conns quoted home owners have no idea about or careless about a cert, the cost (to the customer) of doing full tests for a cert, disconnecting circuit at CU for tests, locating/isolating appliances and testing only if the installation could benefit.
B67671 suggest Minor Works may also be used for replacement of accessories or luminaires, but appropriate inspection & testing...should always be carried out irrespective of the extent of the work undertaken.
Have to say, returning to this industry (domestic) in the last few years, I have had only one customer who could provide a certificate for previous work. When I have replaced a socket faceplate, or installed a luminaire, I do not always complete a MEIWC. I do carry out appropriate tests, but do not disconnected a circuit to do so. I keep record of the tests I've done.
Anything more, or the installation looks anything other than satisfactory, I will do a MEIWC. And I will do the full tests, and not write LIM or N/A.
Just my opinion.
p). The conns quoted home owners have no idea about or careless about a cert, the cost (to the customer) of doing full tests for a cert, disconnecting circuit at CU for tests, locating/isolating appliances and testing only if the installation could benefit.B67671 suggest Minor Works may also be used for replacement of accessories or luminaires, but appropriate inspection & testing...should always be carried out irrespective of the extent of the work undertaken.
Have to say, returning to this industry (domestic) in the last few years, I have had only one customer who could provide a certificate for previous work. When I have replaced a socket faceplate, or installed a luminaire, I do not always complete a MEIWC. I do carry out appropriate tests, but do not disconnected a circuit to do so. I keep record of the tests I've done.
Anything more, or the installation looks anything other than satisfactory, I will do a MEIWC. And I will do the full tests, and not write LIM or N/A.
Just my opinion.
H
hightower
Where does BS 7671 say it may be used?
notes for the installer, model forms
I think that means it may be used instead of an installation certificate, rather than it may or may not be used.
OK, if we are going to be picky here, lets take the example of the replacement socket. Customer has rang and said it has got whacked and is all broken, can you come and have a look. It is on the way to a decent rewire you have on the go. So you call in, hoping for a bit of pie and mash (hope that doesn't start another debate) and a sharp exit. Socket is in bits, so swap it, do a quick Zs, everything is good. Now, really, what you should do is an RFC test at the CU to make sure there is still continuity, and then maybe all the other stuff like IR and RCD if present. But hang on, you need to do the RFC test first just in case it is broken anyway, before you start, else if it is broken after have you done it was it like it anyway? No time for a cuppa and so on, just sorted a potentially dangerous situation out and got a bit of beer money, everyone is happy including the customer. Now, in these circumstances, are we going to disconnect the circuit and do said tests? Or are we going to move on leaving the situation better than before, and crack on with our rewire? Or maybe refuse to change it at all if the RFC is not continuous? We could spend another 20 mins discussing the virtues of RCD protection and periodic testing and bringing the bonding up to spec, but 99/100 customers will just watch us driving away shaking their head, thinking "just like plumbers that lot....." And THEN we have to write out a MWC cert and drop it off another time unless you have a portable printer in the van, cos Mrs Jones does not have email. It's not easy, being cheesy.
I would disagree as the rest of the regulations refer to the production of a certificate being necessary for new installations and alterations and additions to existing installations. As replacement of an accessory does not fall under any of that remit then a certificate is not necessary. But it may be used for that purpose in addition to being used for alterations and additions.
Balls to it !! I'm going to find out once and for all.
In the morning I'm booking myself onto a NICEIC 3 day course in accessory changing. A snip at £420 +vat. I'm expecting the certificate conundrum to take up most of the third day as it's quite a complex issue.
NICEIC | Practical training courses to enhance your industry knowledge - https://www.niceic.com/contractor/training-courses/electrical-courses/accessory-replacement
In the morning I'm booking myself onto a NICEIC 3 day course in accessory changing. A snip at £420 +vat. I'm expecting the certificate conundrum to take up most of the third day as it's quite a complex issue.
NICEIC | Practical training courses to enhance your industry knowledge - https://www.niceic.com/contractor/training-courses/electrical-courses/accessory-replacement
I like it! I'm certainly not questioning your logic. And I agree with most of what you've said.
Hahahaha All aboard!!! I thought you were taking the proverbial there Andy, but its real!! Wow. £420 smackers.
Your right of course. 5 mins socket replacement instructions, 20 mins H&S, 6 Hours paperwork completion, that will be £420 please. And you thought Ozzy was mad!
Amazing isn't it ? I'm not going to get into why the NICEIC think that course even needs to exist.....
Going off the rails on a crazy train?
It doesn't say instead of, just says may.
I was fighting your corner, and you just go and blown it.
Sorry George. Keep the faith man.I was fighting your corner, and you just go and blown it.
Don't know where all this comes from Sparks, I've never mentioned anything like this. I'm sure I've already said I do not do these tests, they're not required for a socket swap.
I do the same as you, quick Zs, look at the board and bonding. I don't always do a mwc though I generally do for a socket swap and I always do if there are issues with the installation.
T
Toneyz
I got told by NICEIC did not have to do MW for like fore like socket/switch replacement etc but nothing wrong with it but good idear to at least note a loop test RCD test (if applicable) quick look at bond mains etc its all a arse covering thing these days.
Do I feel a right dick. Just been to an old ladies flat she's recently moved into. She wants a few odds & sods doing. One job is to add a new twin socket in the kitchen above the work top. Currently she has a trailing lead and socket, plugged into an existing socket below the work top. Thing is no RCD on the RFC, old CU so no chance of adding a RCBO.
I've said no, but could install a surface RCD socket, even though the rest of the kitchen sockets aren't. Someone tell me I'm not being a right arse.
You are not being a right arse
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