UK New timed fan isolator and switch... but lighting circuit is via

[Christophyfryfle]

Simple replacement of an old noisy fan. Should have been rip the old one out, put the new one in. Only change is the new fan has a timer overrun which was chosen due to the old tenants leaving it in for so long it eventually went bust. The old fan didn't have a timer.

Anyway... I've got the new fan and isolator in place, went to replace the twin core with 3 core... and that is when I found the rose was replaced with Quickwire a few years ago. I've been given a few (bit Heath Robinson) solutions of sorts on one forum, which if it wasn't in a Part P location would be fine, but mmmm not sure about bathrooms. And on another electrician forum on Reddit, I only got sarcastic comments back, and one solution that would definitely fail inspection. So third time lucky.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this that would be acceptable in regards to Part P? Short summary: 3 core and earth from isolator switch to Quickwire, which is only twin core. Thanks in advance!

 

[Soi disant]

a Part P location.

So that will be anywhere on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter and
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

If you're registered with ECA, NICEIC and/or ELECSA, this is their Approved Method.

Are members of those schemes not allowed to think for themselves?

 

[Christophyfryfle]

So that will be anywhere on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter and
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.



Are members of those schemes not allowed to think for themselves?

I was given various options via the forum - some of which the manufacturers have confirmed, are NOT Part P compliant (they tried various solutions and the only one that was signed off was the one shown in the diagram). On that basis I assume anything other than that, would fail a (properly carried out) inspection. In any case, as we had drummed into us in our course... ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS.

I would never suggest using a different method to one that has been approved for Part P, and I would never ever recommend ignoring the manufacturer's instructions.

 

[UNG]

But I would recommend Quickwire all day long. The time it saves... They do a starter kit - two splitters, two switch&loads, the wire stripping tool and the tool to take wires back out. Practise till you can do all four in a minute..then put it all away, get an old ceiling rose, four pieces of uncut cable, and time yourself. It is revelatory...

So you take the very simple addition of an over run timer fan and a fan isolator you ask 3 forums then Quickwire and you finally get a solution, using Wago's the job could have been done days ago such a time revelation
I've looked at the Quickwire system a few times and I'm not that keen on how restrictive they are they have a 4 cable model but have never adapted it to a multiple cable model for more flexibility, the current add another splitter christmas tree effect multiplies the potential points of failure in a circuit and also I don't think they are at the right price point yet so to carry a stock of them when you are not doing lighting everyday is a lot of dead cash
I think I'll stick to my box of Wago's and Wagoboxes that are a lot more adaptable to problems like this one and cover more cable sizes

 

[Christophyfryfle]

So you take the very simple addition of an over run timer fan and a fan isolator you ask 3 forums then Quickwire and you finally get a solution, using Wago's the job could have been done days ago such a time revelation
I've looked at the Quickwire system a few times and I'm not that keen on how restrictive they are they have a 4 cable model but have never adapted it to a multiple cable model for more flexibility, the current add another splitter christmas tree effect multiplies the potential points of failure in a circuit and also I don't think they are at the right price point yet so to carry a stock of them when you are not doing lighting everyday is a lot of dead cash
I think I'll stick to my box of Wago's and Wagoboxes that are a lot more adaptable to problems like this one and cover more cable sizes

Well, the Quickwire was already in place and I've yet to see the logic of ripping out one system to incorporate another that ostensibly does the same thing. Unnecessary work in my opinion. Still, all done (and with that diagram, took me less than fifteen minutes to do the whole thing). Happy days...

 

[Soi disant]

I was given various options via the forum - some of which the manufacturers have confirmed, are NOT Part P compliant

You were given various options here, some of which the manufacturers have confirmed did not make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury?

(they tried various solutions and the only one that was signed off was the one shown in the diagram).

"Signed off" by who?

I would never suggest using a different method to one that has been approved for Part P

"Approved" by who? Under what approval regime?


Sorry, Christo, but we seem to be going down a rabbit hole of misconceptions and old wives tales here....

 

[UNG]

Well, the Quickwire was already in place and I've yet to see the logic of ripping out one system to incorporate another that ostensibly does the same thing. Unnecessary work in my opinion. Still, all done (and with that diagram, took me less than fifteen minutes to do the whole thing). Happy days...

It didn't take you less than 15 minutes or doesn't all the time spent looking or a workable solution count in the job time

 

[Christophyfryfle]

It didn't take you less than 15 minutes or doesn't all the time spent looking or a workable solution count in the job time

Fair point ... but if people actually answered the original question - what is the solution - instead of petty carping, sarcasm and in some cases, ideas that would never pass a Part P inspection (all of which suggests they didn't know either) - yes it would have been done a few days ago.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

You were given various options here, some of which the manufacturers have confirmed did not make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury?



"Signed off" by who?



"Approved" by who? Under what approval regime?


Sorry, Christo, but we seem to be going down a rabbit hole of misconceptions and old wives tales here....

Signed off by the IET. To standards BS EN6070-22 and BS 5733-MF.

 

[Soi disant]

in some cases, ideas that would never pass a Part P inspection

Let's assume that compliance with BS 7671 has been chosen as the way to comply with Part P.

So any "Part P inspection" would be to determine if the work complied with BS 7671.

What suggested solutions have there been which don't comply with the wiring regulations?

 

[Soi disant]

Signed off by the IET. To standards BS EN6070-22 and BS 5733-MF.

I'm not aware of any process to have designs signed off by the IET, nor that they run a standards compliance test house.

BS EN 60670-22 is the standard for boxes and enclosures for electrical accessories for household and similar fixed electrical installations.

BS 5733 covers general requirements for electrical accessories, and the MF logo was introduced in it as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation.

Where has a solution been suggested which does not use items complying with the appropriate standards?

 

[Christophyfryfle]

Let's assume that compliance with BS 7671 has been chosen as the way to comply with Part P.

So any "Part P inspection" would be to determine if the work complied with BS 7671.

What suggested solutions have there been which don't comply with the wiring regulations?

Well, one was to take the isolator out of the loop altogether so it isn't an issue, another was to connect the line to the switch live... Maybe those are acceptable solutions in some instances and not in others. Fair point.

Anyway, it is all done. Tools away happy days.... Sun is shining, and today Mr Drakeford finally allowed pub gardens to reopen, so I'm off for a brewski. Could life get any better...

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, and I hope that diagram is of use to others in a similar predicament. Nobody suggested the same solution as per the diagram, good thing it wasn't an exam question eh lol

 

[UNG]

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, and I hope that diagram is of use to others in a similar predicament. Nobody suggested the same solution as per the diagram, good thing it wasn't an exam question eh lol

And your point is what exactly, I doubt an exam would have a question about using over priced junction boxes

 

[timhoward]

To clarify and address some of the misconceptions I would counter that none of the solutions offered in this post by myself or others would fail any inspection. The day exams start having questions on specific branded products is the day I hang up my screwdriver.

As posted earlier the Quickwire diagram is electrically identical to other solutions posted, it just uses their product. (Twin and Earth with 1 core unused is the same as single core and Earth!)
At the end of the day you needed a switched live from somewhere and whether it comes from the fitting itself or via an extra Quickwire box or enclosed wago or any other maintenance free junction box is irrelevant to any inspection as long as it’s installed correctly. I could probably solve this a different way each day of the week and meet wiring regulations each time.
Any rate, I’m glad you got it sorted.

 

[Christophyfryfle]

To clarify and address some of the misconceptions I would counter that none of the solutions offered in this post by myself or others would fail any inspection. The day exams start having questions on specific branded products is the day I hang up my screwdriver.

As posted earlier the Quickwire diagram is electrically identical to other solutions posted, it just uses their product. (Twin and Earth with 1 core unused is the same as single core and Earth!)
At the end of the day you needed a switched live from somewhere and whether it comes from the fitting itself or via an extra Quickwire box or enclosed wago or any other maintenance free junction box is irrelevant to any inspection as long as it’s installed correctly. I could probably solve this a different way each day of the week and meet wiring regulations each time.
Any rate, I’m glad you got it sorted.

I appreciate that but you're missing the point. It isn't the brand that was the problem, In any other scenario I could quite easily have gone for WAGO or another brand, even an old school junction box (well, actually not. The first problem was (and still is) the location.

All the wiring for the bathroom runs under the floor - not floorboards, floor. And is concreted in in some places, plastered behind six inches of plaster in others. The only bare bits are the ends where there would have been a junction box or a switch the junction box (or ceiling rose, nothing would surprise me) for the bathroom. Whoever came in was presumably told by the then owner they couldn't afford a full rewire so did the best they could in the limited space and limited budget. And went for Quickwire.

Quickwire - and there are others on the market - connect all three wires into their system. Their USP is you don't need to sleeve any cabling, as the gubbins inside does all the wiring. Given the location, previous electrician opted for Quickwire. Which does the job perfectly. As long as the fan doesn't need a timer overrun.new homeowner moved in, wanted the forty year old extractor that has a pull cord on/off ripped out, and a new one with a timer overrun. Didn't even know about the wiring or Quickwire, because they only bought the house recently.

Most of the answers ignored the location issue and offered the usual lazy suggestions - use another brand, chop it up, argue with the homeowner. Which clearly showed they didn't read the original question properly. And what you say about branding is nonsense if you're out on a customers property. You are somewhat governed by what is already in place, what the customer wants and what is practical (and compliant) for that location and installation.

Finally a short sharp word with some of the tradespeople on here, you don't dictatcte to customers what they want. They tell you. If you're a car mechanic and a customer turns up with a Ford that has a faulty clutch, you won't stay long in business if your response is to sniff, and say "well, shouldn't have bought a ford then", or "I can jam in one off a Peugeot see how that works...". If you heard a car mechanic talk like that, you'd take your business elsewhere. They're clearly not as good at their job as they think they are.

 

[timhoward]

Thanks for your reply. I agree I was missing your point though it is now becoming slightly clearer.
I think my confusion was that until the last post you just said "Part P location" and to me that isn't hugely prescriptive term as it applies to a lot of situations. @Soi disant made this point earlier.
I think throughout this thread there has been a misunderstanding about the use of that term, what several of us believed it to mean, and what you intended it to additionally convey?
Also agree that QW are an excellent solution to scenario's where there is difficult and limited access.
Anyway, certainly not trying to start a fight! Apologies for the confusion.