NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Approved for Portable appliance testing??

[ackbarthestar]

A mate of mine has his own window and carpet cleaning company in london, he was doing a clean on a building site and got asked to have his carpet cleaner pat tested. Him and his wife went and done a course for a day, brought the cheapest pat tester they could find, now they do that on there own equipment and as an extra. Hes always been a window cleaner has not got any experience at all, but still said the course was an absolute breeze, a waste of money was his words. He learnt more reading the instruction manual that came with the PAT tester than on the course.
Whats funny though is hes scored some large nationwide contracts for the PAT testing all ready off the back of this qualification...

Well there are some intelligent people out there ! but that doesn't mean its a free for all. As I said the Group 4 example is only one and the reason for failure had more to do with attitude towards their employer rather than their own personal intelligence.

I think on the whole, Its not about using instruments and printing out a pass or fail ticket, but is how the results are interpreted.

There is a good reason that authorizing bodies demand that you have Professional Indemnity in place.

 

[Engineer54]

I think on the whole, Its not about using instruments and printing out a pass or fail ticket, but is how the results are interpreted.

There is a good reason that authorizing bodies demand that you have Professional Indemnity in place.

Basically any fool and his dog can do a Pat Test, You don't need to interpret anything, The Pat Tester does that for you!! Most if not all Pat Testers will indicate a pass or a fail, As soon as a specific test indicates a fail, the tester will not allow you to continue the Pat Testing sequence. At around 50p a unit test as the going rate, interpretation or repairs etc, is excluded.

As far as authorising bodies, who are we talking about the scam providers again?? Probably, it's just another parasitic earner for them!! But you don't need them involved at all, ...as long as anyone (or his dog) has indemnity insurance for doing Pat Testing (or anything else come to that) then away they can go, offering a service to customs.

My objection to all this crap, is that a Qualified electrician shouldn't need a totally pointless qualification that has been dreamed up by others, purely as means to an end for there own benefits, but at an extra cost to the professional fully qualified electrician. And no, i'm not talking about the 5 day or 5 week wonders!! lol!!

 

[KFH]

I did the 2377 (got it very cheap) as an aside it's a level 3 qualification!

It was a complete waste of time. I had to show the trainer (a timed served spark) how to use the tester to do a earth leakage test (I read the manual). He even had his faulty demonstration equipment with "do not use label" passed by a contract PAT tester who was doing the whole company!

However I now have a piece of paper which says I am competent. This is all that many companies require. It means they don't have to think or try and work out if a 2391 trumps a 2377, a 2330 or 30 years of experience. It is hard enough for us to follow the changing quals others stand very little chance.

However having got the qual I do very little IsIaToEE (a bigger mouthful than PAT) testing as I refuse to go as low as £1.00 per item unless it is a pile of leads.

On another point even the automatic testers should have changeable parameters to allow for different lead lengths, type of equipment etc. How does passing the 2377 give the knowledge of what the parameters should be changed to? I have even had to get the MFT out on occasions when the PAT tester could not cope. (One was parallel earth paths on a freezer, it was on damp ground.)

 

[Engineer54]

You can call it what you like, ... it ain't no level 3, level qualification, it's not even a level 1 standard!! Maybe it's an incentive to get you to part with more money than you already paid out, ...continuing the current philosophy of treating tradesmen as the cash cows they have become to all en sundry!!

Your comments on the course lecturer just about sums up this buckshee qualification!! How the hell can some dip stick off the streets take this course, ...pass and end up with a level 3 electrical qualification. Your all being sold down the lane my friends, deskilling our industry to anyone with a buck or too to spare!!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Basically any fool and his dog can do a Pat Test, You don't need to interpret anything, The Pat Tester does that for you!! Most if not all Pat Testers will indicate a pass or a fail, As soon as a specific test indicates a fail, the tester will not allow you to continue the Pat Testing sequence. At around 50p a unit test as the going rate, interpretation or repairs etc, is excluded.

Not to be too controversial, but I suspect that you either don't do PAT or do the occasional test on your kettle when required :lipsrsealed2:

Consider using the cheaper PATesters they will either give you a pass or fail, some don't allow you to change the pass value. Give a monkey one of these PAtesters and he will fail everything or pass everything with a little green sticker but will not have a clue why it has passed .

As an example:
How would you test an OHP with a 5m 0.75mm2 3 core lead ? How will you know that it is acceptable. We know that your Monkey with his PATester will just record what he sees popping up on the LCD.

Would your Monkey be able to determine whether or not a leakage current of >3.5mA was suitable for general use?

How would the 'tester' be able to distinguish between class I and class II when there are no markings and the plug is molded ?.

How would this tester cope with the difference between leakage current and touch current ?.

How would your Monkey deal with a built in cooker, hob and extractor controlled by a SFCU and double pole Isolator ?

When would the Monkey know the difference between a soft and a hard test and when to apply and why?

The list goes on and on.........

3-phase equipment, battery charging units, Welders, Transformers, UPS's PC's, TVs , Microwaves

On another point even the automatic testers should have changeable parameters to allow for different lead lengths, type of equipment etc. How does passing the 2377 give the knowledge of what the parameters should be changed to? I have even had to get the MFT out on occasions when the PAT tester could not cope. (One was parallel earth paths on a freezer, it was on damp ground.)

Agreed, The courses we used to run were over 2 days because of this fact. You cannot learn PAT in half a day or a day, which removes the numpties, You do have a better chance with a 2 day course, still unlikely.

The only people who pass IMO are those who are already familiar with the process because they have done it before or who have had previous training in some form of electrical work.

In conclusion I tend to agree with all of you that it isn't a particularly difficult task to achieve, more mind numbing because it is familiar and repetitive.

 

[Des 56]

Rumour has it that Asda and Tesco will be cutting costs by intergrating the price sticker operatives course with the pat testing in oder that they can save money

After all, they say,23 pence then change the unit to 65 pence,then pass, chnage to fail and apply sticker,both are identical

They are concerned that the price sticking part of the course may present difficulties to some however

 

[Engineer54]

haha!! I take it your a lecturer right, with a vested interest in the cash cow training side of things. You basically summed it all up, by declaring this so called level 3 course, is 2 DAYS long!! Your defending this indefensible crap, that a fully qualified electrician, NEEDS to take a buckshee course to know how to undertake a Pat Test!!!

There are thousands out there, doing Pat Testing that have nothing to do with electrical work, most are just normal employee's of companies, trying to save a buck or two by having someone in-house to do there statutory Pat Testing. They didn't seem to have too much trouble passing this electrical level 3 course exam. Most of these operators don't need to know why an appliance fails, that's someone else's problem, they are JUST Pat Testing. These Hubert's i agree would need some form of training, you seem to be getting confused with qualified electricians and 2 day course Pat Testers. Which is my whole point, as the electricians would know the hows, whys, and wherefore's, without going on any 2 day buckshee Pat Testing course.

As for older Pat Testers, ones that only give a pass or fail indication should in my opinion be banned. Only test kit that displays a value for each and every test should be considered suitable for statutory testing of portable appliances.


Oh and you couldn't be more wrong if you tried!! As part of our projects testing & commissioning procedures, literary thousands upon thousands of portable appliances and built in appliances (a different test kit by the way) are tested. On my last project there were around 20 pairs of electrical tradesmen doing nothing but Pat Testing etc, for at least a couple of weeks or more!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

haha!! I take it your a lecturer right, with a vested interest in the cash cow training side of things. You basically summed it all up, by declaring this so called level 3 course, is 2 DAYS long!! Your defending this indefensible crap, that a fully qualified electrician, NEEDS to take a buckshee course to know how to undertake a Pat Test!!!

There are thousands out there, doing Pat Testing that have nothing to do with electrical work, most are just normal employee's of companies, trying to save a buck or two by having someone in-house to do there statutory Pat Testing. They didn't seem to have too much trouble passing this electrical level 3 course exam. Most of these operators don't need to know why an appliance fails, that's someone else's problem, they are JUST Pat Testing. These Hubert's i agree would need some form of training, you seem to be getting confused with qualified electricians and 2 day course Pat Testers. Which is my whole point, as the electricians would know the hows, whys, and wherefore's, without going on any 2 day buckshee Pat Testing course.

As for older Pat Testers, ones that only give a pass or fail indication should in my opinion be banned. Only test kit that displays a value for each and every test should be considered suitable for statutory testing of portable appliances.


Oh and you couldn't be more wrong if you tried!! As part of our projects testing & commissioning procedures, literary thousands upon thousands of portable appliances and built in appliances (a different test kit by the way) are tested. On my last project there were around 20 pairs of electrical tradesmen doing nothing but Pat Testing etc, for at least a couple of weeks or more!!

:29:Well 2 days are better than a half a day and I had to fight to get that.

My line manager was desperate to 'save' money.

C&G2377 is a level 3 course and when you look at the syllabus and see what the students should know and what they actually know then there is a considerable difference.

The only ones in a class who can cope and make a positive contribution are those who already have previous knowledge and experience and are there because it fulfills their obligation to H&SE, PUWER, EAWR.

It appears what the government, lead bodies, scheme providers and awarding bodies are looking to breach the gap between retiring electricians, 2.5M unemployed and a viable workforce up to speed. This may be the reason why the industry is splitting the electricians into metal munchers, wire pullers, leg pullers, technicians, Inspectors etc

Otherwise I think we're in agreement :29:

 

[netblindpaul]

... statutory Pat Testing. ...

Now there is another thing IT IS NOT STATUTORY!

There is NO statute law requirement to undertake PAT tests end of story.

 

[Engineer54]

Then WHY are all these companies PAYING for Pat Testing there equipment, when there is no requirement or need to do so?? I was under the impression it was a Bi Annual Requirement.

 

[stuart569]

The Law regarding PAT Testing South Wales

Contrary to popular belief, there is no legal requirement to have the electrical equipment in either the workplace or, in the case of any landlord or company-supplied electrical equipment in rented accommodation or residential care homes etc., PAT Tested*. However, as we shall see, it is indeed a legal requirement that such electrical equipment, and in particular the items being used in the workplace are, in simple terms, 'safe, well-maintained and suitable for the purpose for which it is being used' - at all times. It is not the inspection and testing that is the legal requirement, but the fact that the electrical equipment, at all times, must be 'safe, well-maintained and suitable for the purpose for which it is being used'. And the penalties for non-compliance can be severe: in certain cases, unlimited fines and imprisonment, not to mention the harm done to someone in the event of a serious electric shock, or the damage done to property in the case of a fire (more than 2,500 people are either killed or injured as a result of electrical fires in the UK every year, and more than thirty people are directly killed by electric shock).

Its just not right that someone can do a few hours course and then judge that an appliance is safe, well-maintained and suitable????pffff

 

[Engineer54]

:29:Well 2 days are better than a half a day and I had to fight to get that.

My line manager was desperate to 'save' money.

C&G2377 is a level 3 course and when you look at the syllabus and see what the students should know and what they actually know then there is a considerable difference.

The only ones in a class who can cope and make a positive contribution are those who already have previous knowledge and experience and are there because it fulfills their obligation to H&SE, PUWER, EAWR.

It appears what the government, lead bodies, scheme providers and awarding bodies are looking to breach the gap between retiring electricians, 2.5M unemployed and a viable workforce up to speed. This may be the reason why the industry is splitting the electricians into metal munchers, wire pullers, leg pullers, technicians, Inspectors etc

Otherwise I think we're in agreement :29:

I hear what your saying, But there is no way on this earth that a 2 day Pat Testing course is a level 3 education standard. Then again, thinking about it, ...standards have fallen so low nothing would surprise me, in this day and age!! lol!!!

 

[Knobhead]

E54,
The C&G course is centred around the CoP rather than the mechanics of PAT.
You have to do it to teach it as well!
The need is that insurers & clients require it, because many of them know no better!!!

How about this.
New client, says I'll have to get you a hi-vis to go into the factory as our insurance co demands that all personnel wear one on site.
Me, do you have many vehicle movements in the factory then?
Client, no we have on FLT and it can't get everywhere, but, we still have to wear them everywhere.
Me, Oh!

When I look around, wiring does not meet regs, thus law, machines do not meet statute law, Ins Co. not interested, happy obviously to cover that risk, but they demand that loose fitting Hi-Vis is worn when working around rotating machinery...

To add a reverse twist to this I ordered a HS inspector to remove his Hi-Vis vest in a casting area. It was a fire hazard!

You wear that vest and I’m not letting you through that door for your own safety! He realised the funny/serious side of it once in the casting shop.