NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Competant person scheme

[RMS1981]

Hi All

Hope this is in the right section and I appreciate this may have been asked before.

I’ve been in industrial maintenance for coming up to 15 years as an employee, the last 3 years have been as a Maintenance Manager at a small/medium sized plastics manufacturer and I’ve been responsible for several large projects involving installation and commissioning services for machines (electrical and mechanical). Doing this more recent work has made me realise that I both want to work for myself and get more into the installation side of things.

Qualifications wise I have a level 3 in Engineered Systems and 18th edition and I’m going to go for my Initial verification and inspection and test. My level 3 is not recognised on the NICEIC list of qualifications needed for approved contractors.

My question boils down the following:

Does what I have plus the inspection and test get me on the competent person scheme?

If so, would I be able to certify my own installation work?

To get on as an approved contractor, I think I’d need to do the experienced worker NVQ. Would what I have get me into that?

Sorry for the long winded question!!

 

[PS Electrics]

Hi All

Hope this is in the right section and I appreciate this may have been asked before.

I’ve been in industrial maintenance for coming up to 15 years as an employee, the last 3 years have been as a Maintenance Manager at a small/medium sized plastics manufacturer and I’ve been responsible for several large projects involving installation and commissioning services for machines (electrical and mechanical). Doing this more recent work has made me realise that I both want to work for myself and get more into the installation side of things.

Qualifications wise I have a level 3 in Engineered Systems and 18th edition and I’m going to go for my Initial verification and inspection and test. My level 3 is not recognised on the NICEIC list of qualifications needed for approved contractors.

My question boils down the following:

Does what I have plus the inspection and test get me on the competent person scheme?

No

If so, would I be able to certify my own installation work?

By Certify if you mean self notify to Building Control Part P work then that is the main point of getting on a competent person scheme.

Anyone can certify their own work. ie Fill in a EIC or MWC and sign it.

To get on as an approved contractor, I think I’d need to do the experienced worker NVQ. Would what I have get me into that?

I believe 5 years experience and a relevant Level 2 qualification is needed to get on that.

Also a problem with the experienced worker route is getting the relevant experience of all the different aspects of the trade.

I would imagine your best bet would be working as an Electricians Mate and taking it from there but it would be a long slog if you need to do the Level 2 qualification to get on the experienced worker tract.

 

[RMS1981]

No

By Certify if you mean self notify to Building Control Part P work then that is the main point of getting on a competent person scheme.

Anyone can certify their own work. ie Fill in a EIC or MWC and sign it.



I believe 5 years experience and a relevant Level 2 qualification is needed to get on that.

Also a problem with the experienced worker route is getting the relevant experience of all the different aspects of the trade.

I would imagine your best bet would be working as an Electricians Mate and taking it from there but it would be a long slog if you need to do the Level 2 qualification to get on the experienced worker tract.

This is what I thought and a chat with a few helpful people at NICEIC today has confirmed what you say.

I’m 43 now and changed careers in my late 20’s into Engineering so I can’t see myself going back to the drawing board again.

Quite frustrating I must admit considering that a large part of my job these days involves electrical installation

So…I’ll have to stick to maintaining/repairing whatever archaic machinery that’s put in front of me.

Cheers

 

[Thomas knott]

This is what I thought and a chat with a few helpful people at NICEIC today has confirmed what you say.

I’m 43 now and changed careers in my late 20’s into Engineering so I can’t see myself going back to the drawing board again.

Quite frustrating I must admit considering that a large part of my job these days involves electrical installation

So…I’ll have to stick to maintaining/repairing whatever archaic machinery that’s put in front of me.

Cheers

The experienced worker nvq isn't hard if you're working in the industry. Just do it over a year or two. Lots of people have completed it by wiring up their garages with tray and conduit.

I had the same issue as you and finished the experienced worker nvq in a few months. I did all of mine on site however. I did already have the am2 but I had to upgrade mine by taking a few additional modules. It's not impossible and you're not too old

 

[PS Electrics]

The experienced worker nvq isn't hard if you're working in the industry. Just do it over a year or two. Lots of people have completed it by wiring up their garages with tray and conduit.

I had the same issue as you and finished the experienced worker nvq in a few months. I did all of mine on site however. I did already have the am2 but I had to upgrade mine by taking a few additional modules. It's not impossible and you're not too old

How did you have the AM2 and not be qualified?

"The AM2 assessment is the last, official step towards becoming a fully-qualified electrician"

It was always my understanding that the AM2 was the end assessment for becoming qualified. ie you would have all the other required qualifications before taking it.

That said I see on the Experienced Worker website it mentions doing an extra module to the AM2 for AM2E.

How has this come about?

 

[Thomas knott]

How did you have the AM2 and not be qualified?

"The AM2 assessment is the last, official step towards becoming a fully-qualified electrician"

It was always my understanding that the AM2 was the end assessment for becoming qualified. ie you would have all the other required qualifications before taking it.

That said I see on the Experienced Worker website it mentions doing an extra module to the AM2 for AM2E.

How has this come about?

I did a level 3 qualification and the original 2391 test and inspection and I was told that I was fully qualified. I then did the am2. The niceic allowed me in as part of its scheme. Eventually I joined a company and didn't need it so allowed the niceic to lapse.

What I didn't realise is in about 2019 the niceic decided to change what it allowed as a qualified sparks and you had to join before that date to be grandfathered in. So when I tried to rejoin I found they no longer accepted my qualifications.

My 2391 and original level 3 counted as credits for the experience worker nvq so it helped a bit. They had also upgraded the am2 so I had to retake a few modules.


The whole scheme is a mess as the niceic joined the bandwagon years ago by signing up kitchen fitters etc to it's schemes and allowed weekend warrior courses to count. Then they were forced to climb down from it all and try to standardise it.

This has affected so many people. Even the experienced worker course was a joke as you at first didn't need any qualifications to take it. They've updated it now thankfully

 

[PS Electrics]

I did a level 3 qualification and the original 2391 test and inspection and I was told that I was fully qualified. I then did the am2. The niceic allowed me in as part of its scheme. Eventually I joined a company and didn't need it so allowed the niceic to lapse.

You would not have been fully qualified with just the Level 3 and 2391.

What I didn't realise is in about 2019 the niceic decided to change what it allowed as a qualified sparks and you had to join before that date to be grandfathered in. So when I tried to rejoin I found they no longer accepted my qualifications.

The NICEIC and others scheme providers should work to the Electrical Assessment Specification (EAS) I would suggest you should have pushed back at them if the qualifications you had were on the EAS List along with having the 2391 and the AM2.

I assume your Level 3 Qualification was not on the EAS list?

My 2391 and original level 3 counted as credits for the experience worker nvq so it helped a bit. They had also upgraded the am2 so I had to retake a few modules

The whole scheme is a mess as the niceic joined the bandwagon years ago by signing up kitchen fitters etc to it's schemes and allowed weekend warrior courses to count. Then they were forced to climb down from it all and try to standardise it.

Yes the 7 week wonders or whatever they were called were a bad idea

 

[westward10]

What is fully qualified?
I don't have the AM2 but many qualifications to my name.

 

[PS Electrics]

What is fully qualified?
I don't have the AM2 but many qualifications to my name.

Fully Qualified was a poor choice of words, Industry Standard is probably a better description. A way to exclude those with just paper qualifications without an NVQ or a practical assessment of competence such as the AM2. Generally what the Industry expects for an Installation Electrician.

 

[westward10]

So I am a reject with no AM2

 

[PS Electrics]

So I am a reject with no AM2

From your profile your an Electrical Engineer aren't you? Why would you want to lower yourself to working on the tools

 

[Thomas knott]

You would not have been fully qualified with just the Level 3 and 2391.


The NICEIC and others scheme providers should work to the Electrical Assessment Specification (EAS) I would suggest you should have pushed back at them if the qualifications you had were on the EAS List along with having the 2391 and the AM2.

I assume your Level 3 Qualification was not on the EAS list?



Yes the 7 week wonders or whatever they were called were a bad idea

The qualification of my level 3 used to be on the list but they excluded it in 2019 unless already a member. My city and guilds number for the level 3 has been replaced a few times when I argued it with them. It is no longer taught. I have other guys at work who did similar courses and now they are not recognised. I was able to book and take my am2 with it.

(I also have a level 3 design course that nobody has seen and it was run the by IET themselves)


My former boss when I took my level 3 didn't have any electrical qualifications. He just had the 16th edition and used to be a a printer technician in the 1980s. He had a meeting with the niceic and was allowed in via interview. It used to work differently years ago compared to today!

For my first niceic assessment they were very thorough and went through safe isolation etc with me. Now the niceic want the am2 to prove you know safe isolation and don't do it on site as part of assessment. So my am2e had a safe isolation "top up module" to prove to the niceic that I was competent ...

 

[PS Electrics]

The qualification of my level 3 used to be on the list but they excluded it in 2019 unless already a member. My city and guilds number for the level 3 has been replaced a few times when I argued it with them. It is no longer taught. I have other guys at work who did similar courses and now they are not recognised. I was able to book and take my am2 with it.

The EAS is set by a committee of the IET strange it was in once and then removed? I wonder why it wasn't deemed suitable?

(I also have a level 3 design course that nobody has seen and it was run the by IET themselves)


My former boss when I took my level 3 didn't have any electrical qualifications. He just had the 16th edition and used to be a a printer technician in the 1980s. He had a meeting with the niceic and was allowed in via interview. It used to work differently years ago compared to today!

Yes it certainly did!

For my first niceic assessment they were very thorough and went through safe isolation etc with me. Now the niceic want the am2 to prove you know safe isolation and don't do it on site as part of assessment. So my am2e had a safe isolation "top up module" to prove to the niceic that I was competent ...

Crazy because AM2 includes safe isolation! Seems more like a money maker than anything else!

 

[RMS1981]

The qualification of my level 3 used to be on the list but they excluded it in 2019 unless already a member. My city and guilds number for the level 3 has been replaced a few times when I argued it with them. It is no longer taught. I have other guys at work who did similar courses and now they are not recognised. I was able to book and take my am2 with it.

(I also have a level 3 design course that nobody has seen and it was run the by IET themselves)


My former boss when I took my level 3 didn't have any electrical qualifications. He just had the 16th edition and used to be a a printer technician in the 1980s. He had a meeting with the niceic and was allowed in via interview. It used to work differently years ago compared to today!

For my first niceic assessment they were very thorough and went through safe isolation etc with me. Now the niceic want the am2 to prove you know safe isolation and don't do it on site as part of assessment. So my am2e had a safe isolation "top up module" to prove to the niceic that I was competent ...

This sounds very similar to me. My level 3 NVQ is in engineering maintenance and I also have a HNC in Operations Engineering. I’ve been working with electro/mechanical equipment for the best part of 15 years. I’ve done my 18th edition and more recently I’ve been designing and installing some pretty serious installations to power some large injection moulding machines all within regs.

I completely agree that an institution such as the NICEIC should not admit any old cowboy into their realms, but it does seem a little bit black and white.

What I will say though is that they are purely centred around installation work. Being an electrician has such a wide spread of fields, that to exclude somebody as an ‘electrician’ because their qualification that they may have done when aged 20 didn’t specifically include an installation unit seems a bit aloof.

It would be nice to have that little logo on the van somewhere and yes, being able to certify and self notify a new installation would be a huge plus. However, I doubt the factory you’ve just walked into with a machine down would give two hoots when you get their line back up and running