Non payment and sign off

[oscar21]

Bit of a rant first to explain the situation:-

Effing builders again, I knew there was a reason we hardly ever work for them. We've done a few jobs for one particular builder and we were on strict payment terms with him, basically if he didn't pay what was owed on the Friday then we wouldn't be back in on Monday, and this worked quite well for a while. But it isn't just the money, its his demeanour as well, he speaks like a robot constantly quoting things like due diligence, moving forward etc. Originally he is an office boy and he thought it would be easy doing the jobs he's seen from his office window because after all the thicko tradies will be easy to run rings round right?

Anyway he tried to tie us up in knots again regarding invoices, apparently he priced the job labour only and now wants me to sit down and go though every invoice and itemise price wise what we have supplied, this is going back over about six months worth of invoices. At the end of the day if I had office staff I could allocate the time to do such nonsense as this for a price but I simply haven't got time for stuff like this and all I hear for the 100th+ time is "cant you just help us out this once". This is as well as demanding that we turn up at a moments notice and prioritise him. Anyway my mate had had just that little bit too much hassle off him recently and in no uncertain terms told him to go forth and multiply so to speak.

As the actual customer seemed fine we explained the situation to them and said look if you want the job finishing (its 99% done) then you need to pay the outstanding amount of £600, maybe knock it off what you owe the builder and we will come back and put the last few switches on and sign the job off. I've already got all the test results needed to issue the cert but I will only do that once its 100% complete (and paid).

So where do we stand with this, I don't care where the £600 comes from but nothing on this earth will get me to sit at a PC and type a cert out/sign the job off unless the money is in our bank. Apparently the builder told the customer that he would get someone else in to finish the job off if necessary. I would love that as I would definitely be vindictive if someone else signed the job off, I know you can check if NIC jobs are signed off but how do you check the NAPIT side of things?

Really the moral is - don't work for builders, I've never worked for one that hasn't tried to do us over in one way or another. I wouldn't mind but this joker is 10% of our work load but 80% of the hassle we get.

 

[MDJ]

Really the moral is - don't work for builders,

I feel your pain Oscar, I have been telling people on here for 10 years not to work for builders and I hate them.

 

[brianmoooore]

Worked with plenty of builders over the years, but only ever worked for one. Always let me get on with it my way, using my designs, and paid up promptly when I presented them with my invoice.
Only odd thing was the cheques I received were genuinely from an account in the name of Messrs Bodgitt & Scarper.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Me has well, never again, reather poke my eye with a pencil, if you are propered to work for the them take a hammer just in case they will Nail your boots to the ground.
If they offer you the work contract to their customer.

 

[Darkwood]

Let's be upfront here, although I understand your frustration here there are certain directions you should not go down, although it may work in some cases it could come back to bite you on the rear hard.

You cannot use the issue of a completion certificate or similar as a bartering tool for payment, works are not formally completed until the cert' has been issued and anyone clued up can refuse payment until you issue it, you are going down the road of blackmail for payment and that does not hold well in court so be cautious regardless if you have any agreement in place, if your contractor takes this route of refusing until you issue it can be several months before you see any money which often you financially lose out on in court appearances, solicitors fees etc.
Ensure work and payment terms are in writing, it is always best to agree a 28 day payment terms when subbing to another contractor, this gives room for admin work and any queries to be resolved, if you are working direct for the client/customer then payment terms can be agreed on completion and issue of certification which is common in domestic work direct with home owner.
I would recommend if you have no adequate cash flow to wait for payment to work with your bank, they too will want your business to be a success and they often open you up to overdraft allowance in case you need room to build up some financial resources.

I went through this myself when I started and wish I had the experience of what I know now, contractual work is usually as mentioned is open to a 28day payment window as you do if you have an account with your wholesalers, be cautious though always find out the payment terms in advance if working for another company and not direct with a member of the public, many mid to larger firms do payments anything from 4 to 12 weeks, that has caught me out a number of times with new customers, there is nothing more embarrassing than asking to be paid earlier after the matter.

 

[oscar21]

Let's be upfront here, although I understand your frustration here there are certain directions you should not go down, although it may work in some cases it could come back to bite you on the rear hard.

You cannot use the issue of a completion certificate or similar as a bartering tool for payment, works are not formally completed until the cert' has been issued and anyone clued up can refuse payment until you issue it, you are going down the road of blackmail for payment and that does not hold well in court so be cautious regardless if you have any agreement in place, if your contractor takes this route of refusing until you issue it can be several months before you see any money which often you financially lose out on in court appearances, solicitors fees etc.
Ensure work and payment terms are in writing, it is always best to agree a 28 day payment terms when subbing to another contractor, this gives room for admin work and any queries to be resolved, if you are working direct for the client/customer then payment terms can be agreed on completion and issue of certification which is common in domestic work direct with home owner.
I would recommend if you have no adequate cash flow to wait for payment to work with your bank, they too will want your business to be a success and they often open you up to overdraft allowance in case you need room to build up some financial resources.

I went through this myself when I started and wish I had the experience of what I know now, contractual work is usually as mentioned is open to a 28day payment window as you do if you have an account with your wholesalers, be cautious though always find out the payment terms in advance if working for another company and not direct with a member of the public, many mid to larger firms do payments anything from 4 to 12 weeks, that has caught me out a number of times with new customers, there is nothing more embarrassing than asking to be paid earlier after the matter.

That's in an ideal world though, I would never give anyone more credit than I could afford to lose, so if I say the client won't get the certs until I'm paid then if he/she never pays hthey never gets the certs, its that simple. I would never capitulate or compromise my terms just for the money, its the principle.

 

[Darkwood]

@oscar21
Yes, agree it's not an ideal world but the post was cautionary and advisory, the certificate is part of the work and until it is handed over there is a position for the customer or company to deny payment regardless if they are dragging their heels for other reasons, like I said it sometimes does work but you are on the wrong side of the legal system in doing so hence be very cautious of using this method, regardless of why the customer/contractor isn't paying all they have to say to a judge on the day is that you have not completed the work as you have not handed over the certificate thus they have not paid, the court will likely side with them as you didn't follow procedure, the few times you are in a position to not complete the work or down tools is if you're in interim payments for the work and completion is not a requirement to receive the stage payments, this is a situation of a few where you are legally justified to take such actions.
There are other methods but require a paper trail of the appropriate steps been taken and forewarnings where you can enter the premises and reclaim your materials, again the legal system allows certain time for responses and chances to pay, this probably doesn't help either which is why we see so many in the trade in this situation especially when they start up, like I said it is a frustrating curve to go through and I have full sympathy as been there, done that and got the sticker.

 

[oscar21]

I got the attitude from my old boss, cant remember (years and years ago) the details but some customer rang up ranting and raving about how he wasn't going to pay for this and that after one of the electricians had been round to do some work. My boss just put the phone down on him mid rant and turned round to me and said "we won't ever be going back there again", I said what about all the work we have done and he just shrugged his shoulders and said "not interested". He was of course in a position to be not bothered about a couple of grand or whatever it was though, he used to walk round with a Netto carrier bag full of cash after the days shop takings.

I always though from that day forward, I need to be just like him and have enough money tucked away not to let idiots affect my life in any way.

 

[LukeD]

Let's be upfront here, although I understand your frustration here there are certain directions you should not go down, although it may work in some cases it could come back to bite you on the rear hard.

You cannot use the issue of a completion certificate or similar as a bartering tool for payment, works are not formally completed until the cert' has been issued and anyone clued up can refuse payment until you issue it, you are going down the road of blackmail for payment and that does not hold well in court so be cautious regardless if you have any agreement in place, if your contractor takes this route of refusing until you issue it can be several monthse you see any money which often you financially lose out on in court appearances, solicitors fees etc.
Ensure work and payment terms are in writing, it is always best to agree a 28 day payment terms when subbing to another contractor, this gives room for admin work and any queries to be resolved, if you are working direct for the client/customer then payment terms can be agreed on completion and issue of certification which is common in domestic work direct with home owner.
I would recommend if you have no adequate cash flow to wait for payment to work with your bank, they too will want your business to be a success and they often open you up to overdraft allowance in case you need room to build up some financial resources.

I went through this myself when I started and wish I had the experience of what I know now, contractual work is usually as mentioned is open to a 28day payment window as you do if you have an account with your wholesalers, be cautious though always find out the payment terms in advance if working for another company and not direct with a member of the public, many mid to larger firms do payments anything from 4 to 12 weeks, that has caught me out a number of times with new customers, there is nothing more embarrassing than asking to be paid earlier after the matter.

True ...its not a good idea to withhold

 

[LukeD]

I got the attitude from my old boss, cant remember (years and years ago) the details but some customer rang up ranting and raving about how he wasn't going to pay for this and that after one of the electricians had been round to do some work. My boss just put the phone down on him mid rant and turned round to me and said "we won't ever be going back there again", I said what about all the work we have done and he just shrugged his shoulders and said "not interested". He was of course in a position to be not bothered about a couple of grand or whatever it was though, he used to walk round with a Netto carrier bag full of cash after the days shop takings.

I always though from that day forward, I need to be just like him and have enough money tucked away not to let idiots affect my life in any way.

Ive seen this work also well..... Customer starts to worry about "radio silence " and them still having some money they owe you .Some people get a bit paranoid about "what is going to happen"

 

[DPG]

Ive seen this work also well..... Customer starts to worry about "radio silence " and them still having some money they owe you .Some people get a bit paranoid about "what is going to happen"

What is going to happen?

 

[oscar21]

What is going to happen?

In the mind of someone lying there wide awake at 3AM, just about anything.