Not agreeing with it, just after some thoughts from fellow sparks

[Pete999]

Been watching an American documentary on the IBEW Electician's Union, realise it's an American idea, but do you think this sort of thing would work in the UK? just asking for opinions please. Do you think it would upset the Schemes much? would it take far to long to organise and Police, if something along these lines were to get the green light, or is it all wishful thinking?

 

[davesparks]

Why whats difference is there? Its not just about install skills, there is also the sciences involved too

The basic science is the same, the basic rules are the same. But then their is a whole wealth of science, knowledge and regulations unique to each sector.

In a lot of areas these days it seems to be as much of a challenge knowing what you are not allowed to do as knowing what you can do.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Like I said preciously, alot of electeicians do work in one particular enviroment but that doesnt mean they will be out of place in others, I certainly wouldn't expect them to be as proficient but at least not uncomfortable.

That is just idealistic and not the case though. Thats why there is the whole Domestic Installer / Electrician thing. Someone working on Domestic only would not need to know as much technically to do their job effectively and that is purely because the scope of their work is no where near as broad. I listed out examples in a previous post and you disagreed with it.

 

[Dillb]

In years gone by yes, but these days the job is becoming more complex in all sectors and this approach is less appropriate.

I see no reason why an electrician shouldn’t know their limits and make it clear to people the sectors or specialities they work in.

The basic science is the same, the basic rules are the same. But then their is a whole wealth of science, knowledge and regulations unique to each sector.

In a lot of areas these days it seems to be as much of a challenge knowing what you are not allowed to do as knowing what you can do.

I understand what you are saying but everything has moved on with it, for example there are now forums where you can ask wuestions if you are unsure and get relevant advice or or help

 

[davesparks]

Talking rubbish imho, theres no difference between a domestic electrician and commercial/industrial electrician. Both work with cable, both test, both do containment, its exactly the same.

Not all cables are the same, not all testing is the same and not all containment is the same.
Not all electricians are the same, and it would be ridiculous if they were.

 

[Cadgey123]

Actually, most industrial electricians don’t even possess a tester, let alone do testing.
On larger sites there are dedicated testers, who do the testing, the rest of the sparks just do the install.

That’s rubbish, how would an industrial spark diagnose a faulty 3 phase induction motor on a call out? Smell it? Of course they have testers

 

[GMES]

@LankyWill I've deleted your post for obvious reasons, please keep it civil and refrain from making it personal.
Domestic vs industrial always creates a good debate amongst members but let's not resort to name calling.

 

[davesparks]

That’s rubbish, how would an industrial spark diagnose a faulty 3 phase induction motor on a call out? Smell it? Of course they have testers

Only if they are doing that kind of work, and these days working with machinery is becoming increasingly specialist due to the ever increasing legislation and legal responsibilities.

The post appears to be referring to the electricians who work on large sites carrying out installation work, the design, testing and commissioning is carried out by other people.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That’s rubbish, how would an industrial spark diagnose a faulty 3 phase induction motor on a call out? Smell it? Of course they have testers

When I think of industrial sparks, I’m thinking of those who work on new builds or refurbishments in Hospitals, football stadiums, railways, office blocks, etc.

What you are describing sounds more like a Jobbing Electrician who does fault finding and maintenance on existing installations.

 

[Pete999]

When I think of industrial sparks, I’m thinking of those who work on new builds or refurbishments in Hospitals, football stadiums, railways, office blocks, etc.

What you are describing sounds more like a Jobbing Electrician who does fault finding and maintenance on existing installations.

Can I come in here with an "in my time", "when I first started", "it's not the same anymore" thought.

Well in reality it isn't is it? there are far too many people trying to take the "change of career route" or "not sure what I want to do" and start late in their career choice, many older guys and Gals have commitments, families etc, I know times change along with circumstances.

Probably think I'm an old fart who should keep his snout of things, because he is too old to understand, believe me I'm not too old to understand, been there and done that springs to mind.

The trouble today is the lack of structured Apprenticeships, and until the Government get to grips with this situation, things will remain as they are, we will have the discrimination between, DIs, commercial and industrial sparks, it's not going to change over night, but until industry, and this includes the small electrical contractors out there, and to some extent for the School leavers, Parenting comes into the equation. Too many people with commitments trying to make ends meet, taking the quick buck route, and unfortunately the entrepreneurs in the training field have cornered the niche in the Market. I can't in all honesty see how you can become an Apprentice Electrician, when you are not on the books with a company, going from job to job, course to course without any structure in your training.

Maybe this is all pie in the sky, living in cloud Cuckoo Land, it's just the way I feel, as an old fart I expect all sorts of abuse for this post, but hey ho lives to short to worry about it, end of rant, don't shoot the messenger please.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Can I come in here with an "in my time", "when I first started", "it's not the same anymore" thought.

Well in reality it isn't is it? there are far too many people trying to take the "change of career route" or "not sure what I want to do" and start late in their career choice, many older guys and Gals have commitments, families etc, I know times change along with circumstances.

Probably think I'm an old fart who should keep his snout of things, because he is too old to understand, believe me I'm not too old to understand, been there and done that springs to mind.

The trouble today is the lack of structured Apprenticeships, and until the Government get to grips with this situation, things will remain as they are, we will have the discrimination between, DIs, commercial and industrial sparks, it's not going to change over night, but until industry, and this includes the small electrical contractors out there, and to some extent for the School leavers, Parenting comes into the equation. Too many people with commitments trying to make ends meet, taking the quick buck route, and unfortunately the entrepreneurs in the training field have cornered the niche in the Market. I can't in all honesty see how you can become an Apprentice Electrician, when you are not on the books with a company, going from job to job, course to course without any structure in your training.

Maybe this is all pie in the sky, living in cloud Cuckoo Land, it's just the way I feel, as an old fart I expect all sorts of abuse for this post, but hey ho lives to short to worry about it, end of rant, don't shoot the messenger please.

You definitely should not get any abuse for that message Pete and you certainly won't get any from me.

It is the way of the world. Saying that, people in the 70 ' s and 80 's drifted into the Electrical Industry from all sorts of backgrounds and there was good and bad in that lot no doubt.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Again, it’s all Thatcher’s fault.
The large Electrical companies are reducing the number of electricians they employ, and instead sub contract the work to other companies or agency workers.
Competitive tendering.

Public institutions no longer directly employ Electricians.
Councils, Hospitals, DOT, the Military, Universities, Railways, BT, etc.
They all contract the work out.
Competitive tendering.

 

[Pete999]

Again, it’s all Thatcher’s fault.
The large Electrical companies are reducing the number of electricians they employ, and instead sub contract the work to other companies or agency workers.
Competitive tendering.

Public institutions no longer directly employ Electricians.
Councils, Hospitals, DOT, the Military, Universities, Railways, BT, etc.
They all contract the work out.
Competitive tendering.

Yes and I shook hands with the Woman and lost my job when I got home from The USSR, she swiped the DOE/PSA off the map at a stroke.

 

[ipf]

Im pretty sure you know all this already....

Yes, you do need a presently require an NVQ3 to be graded as an Electrician by the JIB, or older quals if before 1994.

I have no issue with people who do domestic, commercial , industrial or other specialisations within the industry. There is no way you can be an expert at all of it.

Wanna bet?....although 'expert' may be taking it a bit too far.

 

[spsparks]

Joint Industry Board.

Agree with the JIB but not the SJIB....its a quango up here.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The member of the councils for both the JIB and the SJIB are employers.
They set the rates of pay, terms and conditions of employment and the various rules members have to comply with.
If they cannot make a unaminous agreement on pay, no increase is made until the following year (if then).