Obsolete/ Older DBs

[atm84]

To avoid me from banging my head against a wall, Can anyone tell me where in the regs it might say, that where the original breakers (MCBs, MCCBs, switch fuses units) are no longer available for a DB or Switch Panel and replacements ones would have to be retrofitted in their place (eg say a bigger mccb is required and square D ones are no longer made and Schneider ones are the current replacement) then the whole panel would have to be upgraded. I am often told by my Senior that the DB or Switch Panel must be replaced in this situation. However my theory is that if the disconnection times of the replacement breakers comply and that its a suitable fit then its not an issue. Could it be something to do with the Form of Segregation in the older boards and Panels that do not meet the current regulations. If so, can some one point me to the Reg number.

 

[Guest125]

I am unsure about a specific reg but it would probably fall foul to the manufacturers specification of the MCCB panel. I would hazard a guess that there is a reg somewhere that states that manufacturers specifications should be adhered to.

 

[atm84]

I am unsure about a specific reg but it would probably fall foul to the manufacturers specification of the MCCB panel. I would hazard a guess that there is a reg somewhere that states that manufacturers specifications should be adhered to.

I'm not sure that would be the case, as I have contacted Manufacturers in the past where the Panel is obsolete but they manufacture replacement fuses. If they did not allow replacement fuses to be fitted, then they wouldn't manufacture them.

 

[Guest125]

Agreed.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I dont believe there are any regulations on this other than as already stated,the requirement to take into account manufacturers instructions.
Personally I have no issues with fitting other makes or models of fuses/mcb's into obsolete DB's as long as the spec matches and they can be fitted correctly. The manufacturers garantee is long since void anyway.
That said EBAY more often than not comes good when an obsolete device is needed.

 

[atm84]

I'm of the same opinion but am often told otherwise, however when I try and question it and ask for clarification then I am fobbed off and spoken to in a rushed manner. The latest I have been told is that the Form of Separation in an old Square D i-line board does not meet current regs and by having an electrician open the panel ie for testing purposes then it would not be acceptable, therefore if a new circuit needs to be added then the whole board/panel needs to be replaced to meet current regs. I've been scratching my head over this for ages and can't find a reasonable explanation.

 

[Anthony S]

I'm of the same opinion but am often told otherwise, however when I try and question it and ask for clarification then I am fobbed off and spoken to in a rushed manner. The latest I have been told is that the Form of Separation in an old Square D i-line board does not meet current regs and by having an electrician open the panel ie for testing purposes then it would not be acceptable, therefore if a new circuit needs to be added then the whole board/panel needs to be replaced to meet current regs. I've been scratching my head over this for ages and can't find a reasonable explanation.

You keep it and keep annoying your senior, your end up with the tin tack lol

Maybe they don't want discuss their reason's with you, might be an agreement with the client to change the panels etc

 

[Guest125]

I'm of the same opinion but am often told otherwise, however when I try and question it and ask for clarification then I am fobbed off and spoken to in a rushed manner. The latest I have been told is that the Form of Separation in an old Square D i-line board does not meet current regs and by having an electrician open the panel ie for testing purposes then it would not be acceptable, therefore if a new circuit needs to be added then the whole board/panel needs to be replaced to meet current regs. I've been scratching my head over this for ages and can't find a reasonable explanation.

this is more common than you may think. 'Advice' gets passed down because, well we have always done that. I often find people that instantly dismiss your opinion usually don't know the answer themselves.

 

[atm84]

I'm of the same opinion but am often told otherwise, however when I try and question it and ask for clarification then I am fobbed off and spoken to in a rushed manner. The latest I have been told is that the Form of Separation in an old Square D i-line board does not meet current regs and by having an electrician open the panel ie for testing purposes then it would not be acceptable, therefore if a new circuit needs to be added then the whole board/panel needs to be replaced to meet current regs. I've been scratching my head over this for ages and can't find a reasonable explanation.

You keep it and keep annoying your senior, your end up with the tin tack lol

Maybe they don't want discuss their reason's with you, might be an agreement with the client to change the panels etc

This has happened on numerous projects. If there is a legitimate reason then why not declare it.

 

[atm84]

I'm of the same opinion but am often told otherwise, however when I try and question it and ask for clarification then I am fobbed off and spoken to in a rushed manner. The latest I have been told is that the Form of Separation in an old Square D i-line board does not meet current regs and by having an electrician open the panel ie for testing purposes then it would not be acceptable, therefore if a new circuit needs to be added then the whole board/panel needs to be replaced to meet current regs. I've been scratching my head over this for ages and can't find a reasonable explanation.

this is more common than you may think. 'Advice' gets passed down because, well we have always done that. I often find people that instantly dismiss your opinion usually don't know the answer themselves.

That's what I am starting to think.

 

[spark 68]

The real reason is due to the type testing of the complete assembly.

The manufacturer will have type tested the board originally with their own devices, if you put "unapproved" devices in, regardless of if they physically fit or not, then you have destroyed the original certification, unless you can type test it yourself (highly unlikely) then you must use only the manufacturers approved parts, it is that simple, whether we agree, or disagree with this is immaterial.

 

[atm84]

The real reason is due to the type testing of the complete assembly.

The manufacturer will have type tested the board originally with their own devices, if you put "unapproved" devices in, regardless of if they physically fit or not, then you have destroyed the original certification, unless you can type test it yourself (highly unlikely) then you must use only the manufacturers approved parts, it is that simple, whether we agree, or disagree with this is immaterial.

That's sounds like a reasonable reason but can you explain then where Square D boards are existing, why are Schneider proposing their devices with no mention of type testing etc

 

[spark 68]

That's sounds like a reasonable reason but can you explain then where Square D boards are existing, why are Schneider proposing their devices with no mention of type testing etc

That would depend on Schneider, they took over Square D,if they say their current range are compatible with it then go for it, if they say they aren't then who are we to argue ?

 

[Guest125]

That's sounds like a reasonable reason but can you explain then where Square D boards are existing, why are Schneider proposing their devices with no mention of type testing etc

Schneider purchased Square D - I believe...

 

[telectrix]

recently had to fit schneider MCB in a Merlin DB. for same reason.