old colour cable- is it OK if sleeved brown/blue?

[1Justin]

Hi.

My new (my first!) customer has had his builder in. Builder has been moving cables about and unfortunately re-installing some old colour cable in several places.

Builder wants me to do some further work and take on the electrics, and I'll end up owning the whole installation.

In the nicest way, I made a firm point that he can't use any more old coloured cable and I need to see what he's doing properly from now on. Meanwhile, some of his new install is in old colour cable and he's built it in. He's sensible enough to have routed it properly to reference method, in zones etc, and I can test and prove it's all safe.

An earlier poster said in this forum "As long as its identified correctly at every access/terminal point it's perfectly ok to use". Do I find that point specifically in the regs? It seems common sense to me. I'm not about to tell him to rip cables out, but to start behaving as he should and let me oversee the rest.

This job might end up being a NICEIC sign-off so I don't want to get in a fix because of that.

Justin

 

[cablemonkey]

Dude are you saying that Blue and Brown T&E is old?

 

[wallyanker]

I think the OP is saying that if he sleeves old red/black cable to brown/blue, is this acceptable and within regs.

I do not know of any reg that says you can not, a new install must comply to the brown/blue colours, if you sleeve them at every outlet, CU, etc, I can not see it as a problem.

Anyone else correct me if i'm wrong..

 

[steve50]

yes you can over sleeve with brown/ blue

 

[Geordie Spark]

So, just to clarify, IF I'm doing a rewire & I happen to have a couple of full rolls of red / black T&E, I can use it as long as I oversleeve the red / black cores with brown / blue?

If so, would the same apply IF I was doing a complete install in a new build?

Just wondering ....

 

[1shortcircuit]

1Justin, so the builder has basically been doing electrical work which it has now been decided that he no longer wants to complete so it's to be passed onto you so that you can test inspect and pass off as your own work?

Could you explain in a little more detail what work has actually been carried out and in what locations of the property please. This is only so that you can best be advised if you are not 100 percent on what you should be doing with regards to notifying your work etc

:thumbsup

 

[1Justin]

Hi shortcircuit,

Yes I can do that.

..We have a downstairs room converted to a shower room. Ceiling wiring for downlighters is correctly placed and lamps correctly placed outsize zones. Builder has used old white sheathed black/red. Lamps are not installed yet and the circuit isn't live. - Nor Have I made any tests yet.
.. We have some new lighting on internal corridor area, and in a new porch which again he has wired in old colours.
He has not yet tackled any of the rings or anything in the kitchen.
.. So it's really just lighting at this point.

I said I'd take it on. If I don't then someone else will, but on the proviso that we do things by the book from now on. I looked here for the opinions on the cable sleeving, and if what is said is true (sounds reasonable) then I could remain on good terms with the homeowner and with the builder, and also pass regs.

But I can't claim that I personally pulled through and fixed these cables. Access is adequate to inspect the workmanship. I could fudge things and claim these were existing circuits which got re-used. (Might this be what Joe the electrician would do?). That would not be entirely wrong, nut not entirely truthful either.

 

[1shortcircuit]

1Justin, are you registered with a Part P provider as yet or are you considering using this work to help with your assessment?

 

[1Justin]

I'm a part P registered (17th ed'n regs and EAL part P). Not signed up yet or inspected for NICEIC/NAPIT/etc, so ideally a couple of nice clean jobs would have been preferable, but I'll not turn away work without very good reason. This builder is sensible enough in otherways to cultivate a worthwhile relationship without antagonizing him, and it could lead to more useful stuff.

 

[1Justin]

And I forgot to add, this job is under building control, and overall it will go on for many months. (Builder and owner have further stuff to do).

Maybe I should do enough to keep him safe and running on the circuits he has messed with, find a couple of cleaner jobs for association membership sign-off - then apply pragmatism on return.

I have the measurements from previous electrician who installed a CU before the builder began, so it's not a bad starting position.

 

[1shortcircuit]

I'm a part P registered (17th ed'n regs and EAL part P). Not signed up yet or inspected for NICEIC/NAPIT/etc, so ideally a couple of nice clean jobs would have been preferable, but I'll not turn away work without very good reason. This builder is sensible enough in otherways to cultivate a worthwhile relationship without antagonizing him, and it could lead to more useful stuff.

Okay, I'll give you a good reason.

On this occasion even if you were registered with a provider such as NICEIC, Napit or Elecsa etc you still couldn't take on the work as your own. Just like I can't and I am a Part P Approved Contractor.

As much as you would like to think this builder has done everything correctly who is to say that he has? Nobody will know unless all the cabling is exposed and checked. There is also the fact that work has been carried out in a special location which as you know needs to be certified with the Local Authority Building Control (BY LAW).

Are you able to pull new cable through by tieing onto the stuff that has already been installed or has it all been clipped? If it's clipped or buried then bin it, It will not be worth the aggro honestly. :thumbsup

You're in win win with the builder because if he plays up just tell him that you'll report him to the LABC for not complying with Part P of the Building Regulations. If he holds his hands up and agrees to expose wiring or make good after you have exposed it in order to check it has been routed correctly then fair enough.

Start as you mean to go on:thumbsup

 

[1shortcircuit]

I missed your reply as I was typing my own.

Whilst Building Control are involved they clearly haven't been instructed to check the Electrical Installation because they would have needed to have inspected the routing etc beforehand. Don't listen to everything a builder tells you regardless of how well you know them because there are many out there who are full of it

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Hi.

My new (my first!) customer has had his builder in. Builder has been moving cables about and unfortunately re-installing some old colour cable in several places.

Builder wants me to do some further work and take on the electrics, and I'll end up owning the whole installation.

In the nicest way, I made a firm point that he can't use any more old coloured cable and I need to see what he's doing properly from now on. Meanwhile, some of his new install is in old colour cable and he's built it in. He's sensible enough to have routed it properly to reference method, in zones etc, and I can test and prove it's all safe.

An earlier poster said in this forum "As long as its identified correctly at every access/terminal point it's perfectly ok to use". Do I find that point specifically in the regs? It seems common sense to me. I'm not about to tell him to rip cables out, but to start behaving as he should and let me oversee the rest.

This job might end up being a NICEIC sign-off so I don't want to get in a fix because of that.

Justin

Hi mate,

I wont cover the Part p ground as its been done to death in some of the other replies. But with regard to using old colour cable, you can use whatever colour cable you choose except Green or Green/yellow which are only to be used for earthing and bonding. All you need to do is colour sleeve it to the appropriate harmonised cable. As long as it is clearly identified then no problems at all. I was still using red/yellow/blue 3 core until last year cos i had loads of the stuff.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[1Justin]

Hi shortcircuit.

Thanks, that's food for thought, and I agree in principle.

Taking such a hard line would be tough. Like half the other housing stock in this country, house won't be doomed for ever more. I can't help but think whether some folks on here would deal with it rather than walk away or actually threaten the owner/builder with the LABC? - And I'm not a conflict sort of person :30:

This is all good though. Mind if we carry on this conv later? I'll chew on it.

Rgds


Rgds

 

[1Justin]

Thanks Howard.
That clears up one of the issues anyhow!