old colour cable- is it OK if sleeved brown/blue?

[1Justin]

Hi.

My new (my first!) customer has had his builder in. Builder has been moving cables about and unfortunately re-installing some old colour cable in several places.

Builder wants me to do some further work and take on the electrics, and I'll end up owning the whole installation.

In the nicest way, I made a firm point that he can't use any more old coloured cable and I need to see what he's doing properly from now on. Meanwhile, some of his new install is in old colour cable and he's built it in. He's sensible enough to have routed it properly to reference method, in zones etc, and I can test and prove it's all safe.

An earlier poster said in this forum "As long as its identified correctly at every access/terminal point it's perfectly ok to use". Do I find that point specifically in the regs? It seems common sense to me. I'm not about to tell him to rip cables out, but to start behaving as he should and let me oversee the rest.

This job might end up being a NICEIC sign-off so I don't want to get in a fix because of that.

Justin

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Hi mate,

I wont cover the Part p ground as its been done to death in some of the other replies. But with regard to using old colour cable, you can use whatever colour cable you choose except Green or Green/yellow which are only to be used for earthing and bonding. All you need to do is colour sleeve it to the appropriate harmonised cable. As long as it is clearly identified then no problems at all. I was still using red/yellow/blue 3 core until last year cos i had loads of the stuff.

Cheers.........Howard

Hi Sir Kit - is that right ...? Just wondering, say, if the cable was exposed somewhere along it's length on a run at a later date ...? Can't sleeve that bit?

 

[flukey]

if you sign this job off for the builder, you will be surprised at how many other builders you find want to be your best friend lol.

only get involved if your in control

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I particularly like 1shortcircuits comment about starting as you mean to go on.

I have only ever once (over a number of years..) issued a cert for a piece of cable I did not fit. As it turned out the whole thing turned into a debacle .... but I lathered the cert with script of type "I DID NOT FIT THIS CABLE, IT HAS BEEN FULLY TESTED BY ME ONLY, I ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT"

Not sure if that invalidates the cert but hey, he was happy. I regret it though and if faced with it ever again would never ever do it. It sits badly.

p.s. edit : I guess I added this because the OP mentioned about not turning work down, which is a fair point as regards food on table, kids to feed , etc - the real world.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Hi Sir Kit - is that right ...? Just wondering, say, if the cable was exposed somewhere along it's length on a run at a later date ...? Can't sleeve that bit?

It is sparty, I cant quote the reg number, but it is in there somewhere. But to flip the coin a bit, if you cut into and join to a Blue and Brown under a floor how do you know that the polarity is correct?. you know what the answer is, and you would have to do the same tests with any colour cable then you could sleeve it appropriately.

Cheers...Howard

 

[mhar]

We were told at school that insurance companies propose to load premiums if a property contains red / black cabling. Any truth in this?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

It is sparty, I cant quote the reg number, but it is in there somewhere. But to flip the coin a bit, if you cut into and join to a Blue and Brown under a floor how do you know that the polarity is correct?. you know what the answer is, and you would have to do the same tests with any colour cable then you could sleeve it appropriately.

Cheers...Howard

Fair cop didn't think it through. Cheers SirKit :rolleyes4:

 

[hasel5]

I'm a part P registered (17th ed'n regs and EAL part P). Not signed up yet or inspected for NICEIC/NAPIT/etc, so ideally a couple of nice clean jobs would have been preferable, but I'll not turn away work without very good reason. This builder is sensible enough in otherways to cultivate a worthwhile relationship without antagonizing him, and it could lead to more useful stuff.

1justin please note you cannot be part P registered without being a member of a scheme.

 

[Knobhead]

We were told at school that insurance companies propose to load premiums if a property contains red / black cabling. Any truth in this?

It would be interesting to see documentary evidence other than scare mongering. They would be on very thin ice if they tried it.

 

[1Justin]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: Yes. I am officially not part P because not yet a member.
I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. Agreed that doesn't make me part P - yet..

I am however no longer an "incompetent person" (Or that's what i like to think )

 

[Des 56]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: Yes. I am officially not part P because not yet a member.
I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. Agreed that doesn't make me part P - yet..

I am however no longer an "incompetent person" (Or that's what i like to think )

Forgetting this P thing,the important title is electrician,this "competent person" thing only makes me imagine a nut house where the inmates are judged

 

[flukey]

OK Hasel5.
Correction: I am however looking at my certificate for part P exams. )

whats a part p exam??

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Forgetting this P thing,the important title is electrician,this "competent person" thing only makes me imagine a nut house where the inmates are judged

compus mentis ?

 

[1Justin]

OK give me time.. C&G 2395 next month! I've only been at this for a short while (spent too many years designing mobile phones.) Some real work now perhaps.

 

[JONOXNAM]

Hi shortcircuit,

Yes I can do that.

..We have a downstairs room converted to a shower room. Ceiling wiring for downlighters is correctly placed and lamps correctly placed outsize zones. Builder has used old white sheathed black/red. Lamps are not installed yet and the circuit isn't live. - Nor Have I made any tests yet.
.. We have some new lighting on internal corridor area, and in a new porch which again he has wired in old colours.
He has not yet tackled any of the rings or anything in the kitchen.
.. So it's really just lighting at this point.

I said I'd take it on. If I don't then someone else will, but on the proviso that we do things by the book from now on. I looked here for the opinions on the cable sleeving, and if what is said is true (sounds reasonable) then I could remain on good terms with the homeowner and with the builder, and also pass regs.

But I can't claim that I personally pulled through and fixed these cables. Access is adequate to inspect the workmanship. I could fudge things and claim these were existing circuits which got re-used. (Might this be what Joe the electrician would do?). That would not be entirely wrong, nut not entirely truthful either.

For my 2peneth, if building control are involved they will want an EIC, which you cant sign as you did not design and install or oversee the install, so all you can do is the testing for the stuff already done.

I would only do the paperwork and sign it if I could rip out what I needed to be sure cable were run correctly etc even then I would be inspecting the test results closely.

I have come across cables which are of the correct size, they then disappear under floorboards but they have high R2 values, when you rip them out you find they have been cut and smaller csa cable has been chopped in but that was bonding 4mm vs 10mm but that taught me never to trust what I could not see....

Also did you check the main install also to ensure your bonding etc is up to scratch, Ze, max demand etc etc etc... also surge protection if applicable as of Jan 1 etc etc.

You say someone else will do it and I presume you mean get the cash but then if it burns down they will be in the firing line...

 

[CrazyScozzese]

OK give me time.. C&G 2395 next month! I've only been at this for a short while (spent too many years designing mobile phones.) Some real work now perhaps.

Might need to rethink that, I heard that the 2395 was postponed for 6 months at least. If next month then you are talking the good old 2392 or for the die hards the 2391.