old rewireable fuseboxes

[tawraste]

hi everyone,
just wondering about homes that still have these old rewireable fuseboxes and where the owners want some work done.
please excuse any apparent ignorance in this or other questions i have asked/will ask, i am in the process of learning and these are hypothetic situations where i am trying to link the requirements of the regs with "real world" scenarios.

this is what has got me wondering - in a couple of properties i've been in as a visitor i've noticed (always looking now i'm learning lol) that where someone's had a shower installed, the electrician has mounted a one way enclosure to house the rcd as the old rewireable board does not have one. i always think that this arrangement looks like a "make good" scenario instead of a replacement of the cu. now i can understand that certain customers won;t have the money for a new cu, and i know that if the existing installation is still safe that cost can be factored in. however, is this acceptable under the regs?

i ask this because this arrangement always seems to leave bathroom lights and kitchen sockets etc non rcd protected, so a job has been done and the tradesman has left knowing that these special locations are not protected?!

what if new bathroom downlights were installed for example and were protected by the same method? i.e one way enclosure next to the old cu. i've never seen that arrangement! but if the shower is ok then surely this would be ok?

in my mind these kind of things do not seem the right way to go about things. but surely everyone does not walk away from a job on the basis the customer won;t pay for a full modernisation of their installation? could someone please clarify this for me ?

many thanks,

tawraste

 

[nickblake]

what i will say regarding these boards although they do still comply, there are issues regarding them,the main one is you can use almost anything instead of wire ive see pieces of nail crews tin foil if it will fit through the holes it will be used , the other thing when these boards where installed the demand was very low now we have dish washers washing machines and loads of electrical appliances they were not around when the were originally installed all these appliances put greater loads on the 5419 isolators and the elasticity of these contacts go causing poor connectons and consiquent overheating and fires especially in the boards with the wooded frame holding the fuse carriers i have been to a few fire jobs where this has been the cause so would recommend they are upgraded have alook at the ESC website some intresting info on there

did a job for a guitarist he didnt have fuse wire in his carrier he had guitar strings

 

[tawraste]

yes, the esc website is brilliant. i think their downlighter safety guide needs to read by everyone, clients included. my mate's ceiling went up the other day as the cowboy diyer had not installed fire hoods.

malcolm - your reply was exactly what i was looking for. thank you very much indeed. whilst i'm doing all this learning i look at every single install i can see and try and apply what i have learned. these old boxes seem to raise more questions than anything else, especially as they seem to be in all my friends and family's houses (future pound signs in eyes loL).

 

[malcolmsanford]

Also a lot of the older 3036 boards, ie the wood backed ones, the fuse ways were not rated over 30amp, The bakerlite/plastic ones did have 40 amp ways available, normally a single one next to the switch.

 

[nickblake]

Also a lot of the older 3036 boards, ie the wood backed ones, the fuse ways were not rated over 30amp, The bakerlite/plastic ones did have 40 amp ways available, normally a single one next to the switch.

they did your right ,one thing that is also a little concerning when the DNO replace a cutout they now normally install a 80 amp fuse well they do round here , if you have one of these boards the weakest part is the main switch and that is only rated at 60 amps so there is a possability these can now be overloaded and a greater chance of fires ,dont you just love electricity eh lol

 

[Paul P]

What are the thought of the asbesdos in the fuse sheilds on the old porciline fuse ways i.e. MEM?

 

[telectrix]

hold your breath

 

[madmac]

Fire proof!:winkiss:

 

[telectrix]

asbestos ain't no problem as it takes at least 25 years for the damage to become apparent , so you get an old fart like me to remove it.

 

[1shortcircuit]

I took some pictures of an installation I spotted today. I was going to start a new thread but then I found this one whilst using the forum search function.

I hope the OP doesn't mind me adding this but it does sound like I have found an installation that was being described :thumbsup

As you should be able to see the tails come out of the meter and go straight into the new RCD Main Switch CU where tails then come out and go to the old rewire-able fuse-board.

 

[Engineer54]

What are the thought of the asbesdos in the fuse sheilds on the old porciline fuse ways i.e. MEM?

What about them??? Why would you need to touch the asbesdos flash sheilds in the first place??

There are guys on here, that would have you believe that pulling too many of those old fuses and your ''doomed'' to an early death. They don't want to listen, that these shields were made from the least harmful asbestos, and was in a form that made it less likely to become airborne. ...And that the amount in even a large fuse way board is Tiny. Plus there is rarely a need to touch or disturb the fuse shields.

If what these doom and gloom guys say had any validity to them ....i would have long since been gone!!! Training in a large industrial environment, i was exposed to far more of this stuff than most. We had a policy of replacing those shields every 5 years, section area by section area, whether they needed changing from flash damage or not!!! So as an apprentice, i've replaced literary thousands of the dammed things, ....And i might add, the shield came on a roll, so that it had to be cut to size to fit the carrier...


All you really need to stay safe when pulling rewirable fuses with asbestos flash shields, is basic ''commonsense'' !!! ..... Or as Telectrix suggested, ...get an old geezer to pull erm !!!

 

[tawraste]

no problem at all mate, keep them coming!

bit different from what i saw though. my one had the rcd after the main cu, but simply linked on to the rails with 10mm t&e. not even tails.

in your example i think they were trying to provide rcd protection for the whole install perhaps? blatantly contravening 415.1.2.

would that install be ok if it had been an rcbo rated below 60A?

edit: bearing in mind 415.1.2, how can wylex manufacture this unit with 'main switch' printed on it?

edit: whilst 415.1.2 is relevant i should have mentioned section 314 too!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Tawraste I/m not sure what your post is menaing mate.

415.1.2 alluded to having overload protection and the Bs 3036 fuses will give you that. I think your trying to evoke reg 314.1 division of the installation.

The RCD may have been fitted prior to the 17th edition in 2008 and so then not contravening any regs. It may have been fitted to the BS 7671-2008 because the system is TN-S and it may have an High Ze value because of cables being change/upgraded exterior to the installation. It may even be a converted TN-S to a TT and therefore needed 30mA protection.

What do you do if the customer didn't want the expense of a board change, you have to deal with the situation at hand, and by fitting an upfront RCD, though not a perfect solution, it does leave the installation safer.

 

[tawraste]

thanks malcolm, just after my post i remembered 314 and noticed my mistake. i was searching for reference to a rcd not being used as a main switch.

in the case of the customer in your example yes, it's definately safer - so would you then put that down as a departure form 314?

 

[malcolmsanford]

on a PIR or a EIC ?

On a PIR then no code for me, as the RCD may have been fitted under the 16th regulations. I may put a cover letter to the report advising the client of the drawbacks on this.

On an EIC I would most likely make a note of it under existing installation .

 

[tawraste]

cool, thanks again! things like this are great for getting the regs straight in my head. reading them every day and still finding more understanding is constantly required!