On the fiddle ______________

[timhoward]

Can anyone explain now however why this is dangerous?

You end up with the return path having a much smaller cross sectional area than the incoming live tail.
It would be like having a 25 sq mm Live tail and a 16 sq mm N tail. (I didn’t check the photo for actual sizes but you get the idea)

 

[Judd]

You end up with the return path having a much smaller cross sectional area than the incoming live tail.
It would be like having a 25 sq mm Live tail and a 16 sq mm N tail. (I didn’t check the photo for actual sizes but you get the idea)

The return 'fake neutral' is 16mm same as the live conductors, the consumer unit is fed by a 16mm 3core SWA.

 

[timhoward]

The return 'fake neutral' is 16mm same as the live conductors, the consumer unit is fed by a 16mm 3core SWA.

Ah ok. Well obviously there’s a list of regs one could cite that are being broken and the dangers associated with anyone trying to work on the main earth and finding the full return current passing through it, but otherwise I’d agree it’s essentially the same as a N-E link in the cut-out.
The main danger is probably that it isn’t as it should be and how we’d expect it to be.

 

[mainline]

You know from your description of the neutral cut out tail this is exactly what's going on. Head is not in the same location as the board i presume? So if someone comes to read the meter they can toggle the switch and visually the neutral seems to be in the meter.

Can anyone explain now however why this is dangerous? It looks really poor (main neutral essentially switched with 2.5mm) but when actually thinking about it - if the N and E are connected in the head in a TNCS then really isn't this just doing what the head does but in the CU?

I doubt smart meters would react like that, they would most probably report a power out or even a pen fault.

They have basically linked the cpc and neutral together at the earth bar and disconnected the N from one side of the N shunt in the meter.

The no separation of the CPC from neutral at all turning it into an IT system, How do you think the RCDs are going to react ?.

 

[timhoward]

The no separation of the CPC from neutral at all now turning it into an IT system,

I know what you are saying, but an IT system with no Isolating Transformer isn't really.....

How do you think the RCDs are going to react ?.

Erm, am I missing something as I'd say "the same?". The only difference between this and a correct setup is that there should be two conductors not one and the N-E link is the other side of the meter. The N for both RCD's still connects to the bottom of the main switch.

 

[mainline]

I know what you are saying, but an IT system with no Isolating Transformer isn't really.....

What sort of earthing system is it ?

 

[timhoward]

What sort of earthing system is it ?

It's Friday night and I started early.... but I'd say still TN-C-S really, Just the S is happening at the CPC bar not the cut-out.

The neutral is disconnected from the meter, so when the switch is open there is only one neutral conductor and that's the same one as the cpc,

completey agree

where is the separation of the cpc and neutral ?

The CPC bar. The main earth arrives there which is being misused as a PEN conductor. Imagine the G/Y conductor going to the main switch is blue. We don't have to agree! It's a crazy setup after all. But I think the RCDs would work.

 

[mainline]

I wonder why it was left like that and not removed when they left

 

[timhoward]

Do you think L to Cpc would trip the rcd ? or mcb ?

Yes. Forget the RCD a minute. If current can flow from the MCB through a load and back via the N bar, via the RCD, and the load works, then we've proved it's possible for current to flow. Lower the resistance, all the way to negligable if you like, and lots of current will flow, the and MCB will trip. Or has the 1664 completely broken my brain?

For the RCD, anything that goes through it on the L side and doesn't come back on the 'other pole' will cause an imbalance and it will trip.

If you take the meter completely out of the installation and forget it, this is electrically equivalent to every TN-C-S install. Just the point where PEN becomes N and CPC has shifted but it's still upstream of the RCDs.

 

[mainline]

Yes. Forget the RCD a minute. If current can flow from the MCB through a load and back via the N bar, via the RCD, and the load works, then we've proved it's possible for current to flow. Lower the resistance, all the way to negligable if you like, and lots of current will flow, the and MCB will trip. Or has the 1664 completely broken my brain?

For the RCD, anything that goes through it on the L side and doesn't come back on the 'other pole' will cause an imbalance and it will trip.

If you take the meter completely out of the installation and forget it, this is electrically equivalent to every TN-C-S install. Just the point where PEN becomes N and CPC has shifted but it's still upstream of the RCDs.

I need a holiday ....

 

[timhoward]

I need a holiday ....

No worries, it was a most welcome distraction from trying to reassemble an over-locker sewing machine....I'll explain in Arms in a minute...

 

[Other_Tucker]

How would you stop the neutrals from acting as proper neutrals though since they're all physically connected correctly in the board?

I'm trying to visualise a set up whereby the board can look normal but can be switched to use earth as neutral.

There are two large diameter cables going from the CU to the same point in the head, a blue and a green yellow. The blue passes through the meter and the other doesn't, swapping them won't affect the installation because they're joined anyway, essentially it's just a cable colour changing crossover switch.

The CSA is different 16mm-25mm if you're fussy , but if the deteriorating rubber DNO tails to the meter are 10mm anyway I can't see it being an issue

 

[davesparks]

What sort of earthing system is it ?

TN-C

 

[mainline]

There are two large diameter cables going from the CU to the same point in the head, a blue and a green yellow.

No there isn’t the blue conductor isn’t connected to the meters neutral as the incoming to the meter has been disconnected, leaving a switched shared cpu/neutral connected to the meters output.

 

[mainline]

TN-C

Thats what I thought but was more concerned with using a single conductor to combine N and Cpc I would have thought could upset an rcd.