Part P or 2391

[Shakey]

Shakey I have miles of study and course materials on 2391 (books, CDs, booklets etc). Do I need to throw all of them out and start all over again or is there any way I can upgrade them? I am still toying with the idea of going for 2391 or 2392 as it will be called from July.

Darius, are you taking the mickey, mate?

You having a laugh?

Did you read my post


look, once and for all

THE 2391 IS NOT CHANGING!!!!!!!!!!!

the 2391 is staying as the 2391, what the hell has July got to do with anything?

The 2392 is an entrirely seperate beast

jeez, my throat is getting sore I have said this on here so often

as regards all your study material Darius, keep it

Zs is stil Zs

PEFC is still PEFC

only changes are IR values, terminology from Direct / indirect contact to Basic / fault protection, papaerwork changes (mainly on schedule of inspoections) and verification of voltage drop using circuit impedence

apart from that its all good

I have students who have passed the practical (under the 16th) and we will be resitting their written papaer under ther 17th

How can they do that? Because the 2391 is staying as the 2391

 

[dragon-av]

Can anyone tell me what is meant by limited scope B as I dont want to be a spark just competent i was hoping to just need the lower scope qualification and hopefully that includes all i will need.

Ok I found out it wasnt hard but it seems to be what i need, Just had a really good conversation with NAPIT, who were really helpful. Suggetsed a C&G wiring regs course. ANyone know the number for the 17th edition updated one?

 

[Grae79]

this's from the NAPIT website:


Defined Scope Scheme
The defined scope scheme (Level B) covers New Circuits, and adding to Existing Circuits. It is aimed at non-electricians working in dwellings who need to carry out electrical work as part of the normal jobs. For the NAPIT Defined Scope Scheme you need:
1.Both a and b
a. An appropriate Certificate of Competence such as the NAPIT Certificate NA-L1L4 **or the EAL Domestic Installers qualification** and
b. An interim on site technical assessment which can be carried out by one of NAPIT's Regional Officers.*
AND
2. A current BS7671:2001 qualification such as NA-2381 or C&G 2381**, or an interim onsite technical assessment*
AND
3. £2m of Public Liability Insurance
AND
4. Relevant Publications - BS7671:2001 which costs £49 available from the IEE, Tel: 01438 767328). You will also need a Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 which costs £4 from the HSE, Tel: 01787 881165, and the Approved Document for Part P which can be downloaded for free from the NAPIT website.
AND
5. A full set of Test Instruments* After the interim site technical assessment, you then have 12 months to gain an appropriate qualification.

 

[Shakey]

Can anyone tell me what is meant by limited scope B as I dont want to be a spark just competent i was hoping to just need the lower scope qualification and hopefully that includes all i will need.

Ok I found out it wasnt hard but it seems to be what i need, Just had a really good conversation with NAPIT, who were really helpful. Suggetsed a C&G wiring regs course. ANyone know the number for the 17th edition updated one?

if you have 16th edition 2381 post Sep 01 or 2330 post 04 then you sit the 2382-10 17th update

If you are previous to that or dont have the regs at all, then you sit the full 2382-10 17th edition exam (although that doesnt mean you have to do a full course)

 

[dragon-av]

if you have 16th edition 2381 post Sep 01 or 2330 post 04 then you sit the 2382-10 17th update

If you are previous to that or dont have the regs at all, then you sit the full 2382-10 17th edition exam (although that doesnt mean you have to do a full course)

Thanks Shakey 2382-10 exam sounds like the one i could need. Napit are sending me some information they seemed alot more helpful than NICEIC although explaining what i do is not easy over the phone. Having read some of the posts on here I am getting a etter understanding of what the impact of regs are for me its mainly adding spurs in none special locations (lounges and bedrooms) or otside the special areas in kitchens and bathrooms (need to double check what the new areas are) a colleugue of mine who recently did a course seemed to think all new spurs needed RCD protection but am i right in saying that if installed more than 50mm into a solid wall and for dedcated use (ie a projector) and labelled then an additional RCD is not required? Also if the property has an RCD CU already does this count or do you need an in room RCD as well? What does one do about stud walls? are the regs the same regardless of wall construction? Sorry if this off topic

 

[Shakey]

5cm is regardless of wall construction

if the ring was already on an RCD then the spur would be covered

If not as long as YOUR spur was on an rcd you would be allright, or surface mount the cable and label the socket as you have said

 

[Darius-parky]

Darius, are you taking the mickey, mate?

You having a laugh?

Did you read my post


look, once and for all

THE 2391 IS NOT CHANGING!!!!!!!!!!!

the 2391 is staying as the 2391, what the hell has July got to do with anything?

The 2392 is an entrirely seperate beast

jeez, my throat is getting sore I have said this on here so often

as regards all your study material Darius, keep it

Zs is stil Zs

PEFC is still PEFC

only changes are IR values, terminology from Direct / indirect contact to Basic / fault protection, papaerwork changes (mainly on schedule of inspoections) and verification of voltage drop using circuit impedence

apart from that its all good

I have students who have passed the practical (under the 16th) and we will be resitting their written papaer under ther 17th

How can they do that? Because the 2391 is staying as the 2391

Taking the mickey? I wouldn't do that mate. Not to you. I must admit I was a bit confused but now I saw the light.

Thanks very much mate. We must sit down Friday night and start with a bottle of Johnny Walker black lable. I know you said never again after last Friday night but hey......

 

[Shakey]

Taking the mickey? I wouldn't do that mate. Not to you. I must admit I was a bit confused but now I saw the light.

Thanks very much mate. We must sit down Friday night and start with a bottle of Johnny Walker black lable. I know you said never again after last Friday night but hey......

No probs Darius

i just get a bit narky when i go to great lengths to answer posts fully and accurately, and people just jump in without reading them

and cant do Friday, off to a gig, maybe next week

 

[ian.settle1]

Malc, how do you reckon 2391 will be obselete? and what do you think will replace it?

Whatr do you think will happen to all the exisitng 2391 holders?

Look, all that has happened is people who taken 2391 up to now have taken it based on the 16th edition

People who take it from now on will take it based on the17th edition, but, and this is the point, there is NOTHING on the 2391 certificate (other than the date) which states which addition of the regs was in force when the exam was sat

existing 2391 holders simply have to update their regs qual, their 2391 is still (and always will be!) valid, it certainly isnt obselete!

are you aware of what the 2392 is? I have seen you mention it on a few posts

The 2392 is the Fundamental certificate in inspection and testing. It is a Level 2 qual (2391 is Level 3) and concentrates on initial verification only

there is a full test on a simple single phase board and a 45Q multi choice on line exam

it is meant as a 'stepping stone' to the 2391, but is not a requirement.

and regarding the regs and 2391, holding 2381 or 2382 is not a pre-requisite for sitting the 2391

hope this has cleared it up for you

oh, and before you bounce back with "but I was told by.......", I am the training manager for a private company, and teach all of these courses, including 2392 AND 2391, and shall continue to do so !!!!

Sorry to disagree Shakey

When I did 2391 in 2005, the college I went to would not let you do it unless you had 2380/1 and if you wanted to do 2400 (now 2391/02) you had to have both before they would let you do that course.

 

[Shakey]

Sorry to disagree Shakey

When I did 2391 in 2005, the college I went to would not let you do it unless you had 2380/1 and if you wanted to do 2400 (now 2391/02) you had to have both before they would let you do that course.

yes Ian, the college told you, NOT C&G!!!!

most colleges follow this rule

i would not let students on my 2391 courses unless they had considerable regs experience and teat & inspect experience, but those are MY rules, not C&G!

the C&G 2391 qualification handbook specifically backs up what i have said, that it is RECCOMENDED that candidates have considerable knowledge of the wiring regs (but not the qual) and theres a reason for it

It is quite feasible that someone could apply to sit the 2391, but holds the EAL 17th edition wiring regs qual, if C&G insisted you had to have THEIR 17th edition qual (for example) then they would be effectively running a cartel

 

[dragon-av]

5cm is regardless of wall construction

if the ring was already on an RCD then the spur would be covered

If not as long as YOUR spur was on an rcd you would be allright, or surface mount the cable and label the socket as you have said

ah ok so does it have to be surface mount for labelled cables then? If so that sort of helps but not really. I am sort of getting it now. DOes anyone have any reconmendations for good reading material on the new regs that are well explained or is it too early in the 17th edition for 3rd party reference guides?

 

[Malcg]

For those that are being confused by conflicting answers about C&G 2381/2391 exams

The City&Guilds website is definitive since they set the exams not anyone else. The following page lists the current C&G Qualifications for Electricians. City & Guilds | Electrical installation

You will see that 2381 and 2391 are specifically based on the 16th Edition of the Regulations. For example in the 2381 C&G documentation it states: "The Certificate described in this scheme is the Level 3 Certificate for the Requirements for Electrical Installations BS7671: June 2001".

If your are starting from scratch on this route you would choose to follow 2382-10 and the new 2391-xx as these are based on the 17th Edition.

If you are already taken the 16th Edition exams, you can upgrade 2381 with the 2382-20 and upgrade the 2391 with the latest version 2391-xx.

Since posting this 1/2 hour ago, I have discovered the following comments:

City and Guilds 2391 and 2392 Qualifications Following extensive feedback from centres City and Guilds have decided to go back to their original ‘2391’ numbering system from the ‘2392’ system. That's so candidates, centres and employers are always clear that their candidate holds an inspection and testing or design qualification, rather then the new lower level certificate in fundamental initial verification. Both existing 2391 qualifications have been updated to accord with the new 17th edition of the wiring regulations, so will still have new numbers under the 2391 scheme indicating whether a candidate has a 16th or 17th edition aligned qualification. To find out more please click the following links. If you are still not sure give City & Guilds a call as they will give you the definitive answer.
​

You will also find that the City&Guilds website is being modified right now for this achange and some links are failing.

Don't forget that from 1st July 2008 if you have not got the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations your in breach of EWRegs / HSE25 / HSG85 whenever you work. You cannot be a "Competent person" unless you know the 17th Edition of the Wriring Regulations or are working as a "Skilled person" under supervision.

ah ok so does it have to be surface mount for labelled cables then? If so that sort of helps but not really. I am sort of getting it now. DOes anyone have any reconmendations for good reading material on the new regs that are well explained or is it too early in the 17th edition for 3rd party reference guides?

The most accurate answers will be found on the Electrical Safety Coulcil site at this point: Electrical Safety Council

The answer to your question will be found in section ED.
Also the Connections magazine from NICEIC (Welcome to NICEIC, the home of electrical contracting excellence — NICEIC Group) has usefull information in each issue. I use the Technical helpline regularly - pays for registration many times over!

Have you got the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations yet?

 

[Shakey]

For those that are being confused by conflicting answers about C&G 2381/2391 exams

The City&Guilds website is definitive since they set the exams not anyone else. The following page lists the current C&G Qualifications for Electricians. City & Guilds | Electrical installation

You will see that 2381 and 2391 are specifically based on the 16th Edition of the Regulations. For example in the 2381 C&G documentation it states: "The Certificate described in this scheme is the Level 3 Certificate for the Requirements for Electrical Installations BS7671: June 2001".

If your are starting from scratch on this route you would choose to follow 2382-10 and the new 2391-xx as these are based on the 17th Edition.

If you are already taken the 16th Edition exams, you can upgrade 2381 with the 2382-20 and upgrade the 2391 with the latest version 2391-xx.


Since posting this 1/2 hour ago, I have discovered the following comments:

City and Guilds 2391 and 2392 Qualifications Following extensive feedback from centres City and Guilds have decided to go back to their original ‘2391’ numbering system from the ‘2392’ system. That's so candidates, centres and employers are always clear that their candidate holds an inspection and testing or design qualification, rather then the new lower level certificate in fundamental initial verification. Both existing 2391 qualifications have been updated to accord with the new 17th edition of the wiring regulations, so will still have new numbers under the 2391 scheme indicating whether a candidate has a 16th or 17th edition aligned qualification. To find out more please click the following links. If you are still not sure give City & Guilds a call as they will give you the definitive answer.​

You will also find that the City&Guilds website is being modified right now for this achange and some links are failing.

Don't forget that from 1st July 2008 if you have not got the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations your in breach of EWRegs / HSE25 / HSG85 whenever you work. You cannot be a "Competent person" unless you know the 17th Edition of the Wriring Regulations or are working as a "Skilled person" under supervision.



The most accurate answers will be found on the Electrical Safety Coulcil site at this point: Electrical Safety Council

The answer to your question will be found in section ED.
Also the Connections magazine from NICEIC (Welcome to NICEIC, the home of electrical contracting excellence — NICEIC Group) has usefull information in each issue. I use the Technical helpline regularly - pays for registration many times over!

Have you got the 17th Edition Wiring Regulations yet?

Malc, some of your comments are misleading - no-one needs to 'upgrade' their 2391 qual. indeed, C&G wont let you re-sit a qual that you already hold!!!

if someone has 2391, all they need to do is upgrade their 17th edition qual

and the number change from 2392 back to 2391? that was sorted out last year!!!!!!

i have had enough of a battle on here convincing people that the 2392 is new qual, and that 2391 is staying as it is without you confusing things with your comments

and how exactly will you be breaching the EAWR's if you havent got the 17th edition after 01 Jul? Which part exactly would you be breaching? And do you mean the book itself, or the qual?

After 01 Jul people can still work to the 16th (in certain circumstances) so how would someone be breaching the EAWR's?

 

[Malcg]

After 01 Jul people can still work to the 16th (in certain circumstances) so how would someone be breaching the EAWR's?

Which part of the BS7671: 2008 17th Edition Wiring Regulations state that there are "certain circumstances" where you can still work to the 16th Edition please?

You are the one who is misleading working electricians!

There is no C&G 2391 course (they were to be 2392-10 -20 and -30). The current certificates from City & Guilds are:

C&G 2392-10: Certificate in Fundermental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification

C&G 2391-10: Certificate on Inspection, Testing and Reporting of Existing Electrical Instalations

C&G 2391-20: Certificate in Design, Erection and Verification of Electrical Installations
​

 

[Shakey]

Which part of the BS7671: 2008 17th Edition Wiring Regulations state that there are "certain circumstances" where you can still work to the 16th Edition please?

You are the one who is misleading working electricians!



There is no C&G 2391 course (they were to be 2392-10 -20 and -30). The current certificates from City & Guilds are:

C&G 2392-10: Certificate in Fundermental Inspection, Testing and Initial Verification​

C&G 2391-10: Certificate on Inspection, Testing and Reporting of Existing Electrical Instalations​

C&G 2391-20: Certificate in Design, Erection and Verification of Electrical Installations ​

Try reading Page 4 my friend

It clearly says "Installations DESIGNED after 30 June 2008 are to comply with BS7671:2008"

You could deisgn an installation in May, and install it in Sep to BS7671:2001 as ammended 2004.

You could start an installation in May, which would not be complete until Oct, this could also be done to the 16th

So these are two "certain circumstances" when you can still work to the 16th after 01 Jul

Regarding 2391, I am the training manager for a private training company, I deal with C&G on a daily basis, and also teach 2391 (as well as 2392). I have devoloved authority from C&G to independently authorise my own practical exam results for both 2392 and 2391 - and they dont give that away with a box of cornflakes!

You are being somewhat pedantic. By your reasoning, there has NEVER been a 2391 then! 2391, as with most C&G quals, have a number afterwards to differntiate between sub-quals. The point is it has ALWAYS had it, so there has never been a 'stand-alone' 2391 qual, it has always been 2391- (something)

The point is it does NOT need upgrading, as you have suggest earlier, and THAT is misleading people.

People have become confused because 2391 was changing to part of the 2392 series, but C&G quickly changed their minds, because of people like me standing up at their seminars complaining.

So people ended up thinking that 2392 was the 'new' 2391.

I have worked hard on this forum to let people know what is happening - 2392 is new, and is only level 2, 2391 is remaining unchanged (save the number change at the end) and no-one who is 2391 qualified is ALLOWED to upgrade their qual, never mind needs to!

Upgarding to a BS7671:2008 qual automatically upgrades your 2391 qual.

You appear to be trying to 'stamp your authority' here, but in my opinion you are not helping matters, in this this transitional period when there is a lot of heresay and conjencture out there

oh, and I would still like to know how someone would be in breach of the EAWR's??????