Phasing nightmare

[Michael Smith]

You need a 4 phase board.

never knew they existed :/
if thatll sort the phase question i asked originally then thanks

 

[Michael Smith]

would a surge suppression kit help with spikes if the only battery was the 12V and everything else was linked either by belt or by cable to one another?

im thinking for safety while starting id put soft start controllers in to help the starter motors from snapping the belts at full torque and revs, i know that thatll happen ONLY at start up but its still good to know the belts are not going to snap the second you turn it all on or after a power failure

 

[trev]

just throwing it out there again...... recirculating power source (itll power itself)

You can't take a telling can you? IT WON'T WORK! IT REQUIRES AT LEAST 101% EFFICIENCY AND THAT DOESN'T EXIST!

 

[snowhead]

anyway, back to the topic, how can i make a power system that will do all power ranges between 200V and 500V
Amps of up to 200A
50HZ
and both single and 3 phase??

Ring your local D.N.O and ask for a standard 3 phase 415v connection, they'll give you the 230v supply for free, but will want paying for electricity used of course as it really does cost money to generate electricity.

 

[Michael Smith]

You can't take a telling can you? IT WON'T WORK! IT REQUIRES AT LEAST 101% EFFICIENCY AND THAT DOESN'T EXIST!

do the research....... i know for a FACT that a 12VDC starter CAN run a 48V alternator :/ all you need is the torque to turn the alternator..... which the starter can do as it can start 6L V8 diesel engines with ease


if you think im wrong then show a detailed calculation of how you came to the conclusion the 12VDC motor WONT be powerful enough to turn a 48V alternator at its required revolutions

 

[shanky887614]

do the research....... i know for a FACT that a 12VDC starter CAN run a 48V alternator :/ all you need is the torque to turn the alternator..... which the starter can do as it can start 6L V8 diesel engines with ease


if you think im wrong then show a detailed calculation of how you came to the conclusion the 12VDC motor WONT be powerful enough to turn a 48V alternator at its required revolutions

ah but a 12v starter only ignites the fuel so it doent need to be powerful enough to turn the engine because it doesnt.

it works by expanding gases when fuel is compressed/ignited depending on petrol or diesel

 

[trev]

Mate I'm a qualified electrician with 34 years under my belt. I have an enquiring mind and know how things work. Your scenario wouldn't because it requires the constant application of more power than can be deivered. A starter works because immediately after the engine starts it takes over from it. The starter does exactly that. Starts.
You're obviously not prepared to listen to some very clever people (myself excluded from that) who have told you that what you're proposing is a pipe dream so I'm done here.

 

[trev]

8 pages of all kinds of people telling him somethings impossible and we're the ones talking rubbish, why aye bonny lad. Crack on, have a talk to that Polish clown, you'd get along great with him.

 

[Besoeker]

do the research....... i know for a FACT that a 12VDC starter CAN run a 48V alternator :/ all you need is the torque to turn the alternator..... which the starter can do as it can start 6L V8 diesel engines with ease

With respect, that's a total irrelevance.
Have you looked at the pinion on a starter motor and the flywheel with which it engages?
"Give me a long enough lever and a suitable fulcrum and I shall move the world."
Usually attributed to Archimedes.

 

[Michael Smith]

ah but a 12v starter only ignites the fuel so it doent need to be powerful enough to turn the engine because it doesnt.

it works by expanding gases when fuel is compressed/ignited depending on petrol or diesel

you clearly are not a trained mechanic :/
for starters.... a starter motor doesnt ignite fuel..... it only spins the engine fast enough for the combustion of the fuel/air mix to ignite, meaning the 'engine' takes over (starter 0-600RPM, engine 400RPM+)
the starter has to overpower the engine when the pressure gets to its peak.... ie at BTDC where chamber pressures will not be as great as when the engine is running through combustion but still pretty high and the faster the engine spins the higher those pressures get but luckily they will be met for a shorter period the more RPMS the engine is turning at
why do you think when you start your car up it sounds more like a 'pulse' than a smooth turning motion...... the drop is the high pressures 'slowing' the motor or.... putting load on it

 

[Silly Sausage]

you clearly are not a trained mechanic :/
for starters.... a starter motor doesnt ignite fuel..... it only spins the engine fast enough for the combustion of the fuel/air mix to ignite, meaning the 'engine' takes over (starter 0-600RPM, engine 400RPM+)
the starter has to overpower the engine when the pressure gets to its peak.... ie at BTDC where chamber pressures will not be as great as when the engine is running through combustion but still pretty high and the faster the engine spins the higher those pressures get but luckily they will be met for a shorter period the more RPMS the engine is turning at
why do you think when you start your car up it sounds more like a 'pulse' than a smooth turning motion...... the drop is the high pressures 'slowing' the motor or.... putting load on it

You're obviously a brilliant mechanic!
Try an engine forum, you may have more success there with your ideas. :smilielol5:

 

[Besoeker]

it only spins the engine fast enough for the combustion of the fuel/air mix to ignite, meaning the 'engine' takes over (starter 0-600RPM, engine 400RPM+)[/quote ]
It would be unusual for a starter motor to turn the engine at anything like 600rpm - a couple of hundred would be a more probable max.
No, I'm not a trained mechanic but I've been a petrolhead all my life. There are very few parts on a car that I have not stripped down, refurbished, or replaced. Including grinding down cam follower spacers on my first car which had an overhead cam shaft engine. Developed from the Coventry Climax.
Sometimes this knowledge has been used - and abused. Unreasonable expectations.

Perhaps the worst was on my cousin's old Rover 75. One of the half elliptic spring rear leaf springs (think horse drawn cart) had a broken element. I replaced the entire spring. On my own. It needed a few strategically place jacks to relieve the tension so that I could remove bolts. It was challenge and a risky operation with the potential to get seriously hurt. It didn't make it any easier that it was outside on new years day, freezing cold, and snow on the ground. And all the others had baggered off to see a bl00dy football match.

I mention this not to blow my own trumpet - as I reflect back now it probably wasn't one of my most prudent undertakings. The point is I do know a bit about vehicle mechanics.
So give up with the bullshyte.
It won't work with me.

 

[spark 68]

There are very few parts on a car that I have not stripped down, refurbished, or replaced. Including grinding down cam follower spacers on my first car which had an overhead cam shaft engine. Developed from the Coventry Climax.

Hillman imp then ?

 

[Michael Smith]

it only spins the engine fast enough for the combustion of the fuel/air mix to ignite, meaning the 'engine' takes over (starter 0-600RPM, engine 400RPM+)[/quote ]
It would be unusual for a starter motor to turn the engine at anything like 600rpm - a couple of hundred would be a more probable max.
No, I'm not a trained mechanic but I've been a petrolhead all my life. There are very few parts on a car that I have not stripped down, refurbished, or replaced. Including grinding down cam follower spacers on my first car which had an overhead cam shaft engine. Developed from the Coventry Climax.
Sometimes this knowledge has been used - and abused. Unreasonable expectations.

Perhaps the worst was on my cousin's old Rover 75. One of the half elliptic spring rear leaf springs (think horse drawn cart) had a broken element. I replaced the entire spring. On my own. It needed a few strategically place jacks to relieve the tension so that I could remove bolts. It was challenge and a risky operation with the potential to get seriously hurt. It didn't make it any easier that it was outside on new years day, freezing cold, and snow on the ground. And all the others had baggered off to see a bl00dy football match.

I mention this not to blow my own trumpet - as I reflect back now it probably wasn't one of my most prudent undertakings. The point is I do know a bit about vehicle mechanics.
So give up with the bullshyte.
It won't work with me.

ok, next time your in the car, turn the key again when the engine is running, youll see that itll drop from about 800rpm (after the choke is off) to about 600rpm.... but i wouldnt advise this due to wearing both alternator and starter solenoid

 

[Silly Sausage]

Have you time warped here from the early 70s?

 

[spark 68]

Have you time warped here from the early 70s?

60's mate, that's where I have been for the last couple of months, I got some flux capacitors on the special from RS, I put 1GW through them from my stack of car batteries and got lost, I had to charge each one up from my 12V alternator to get back to the here and now, oh! and I met this weird Polish bloke and an Old Jag lover who helped me. lol

 

[Bobster]

Aside from this thread being mildly amusing, what a crock of shyte.

If anyone on here knew how to do what you are asking for they:

a) wouldn't pass that information for free.
b) wouldn't be on here, instead probably on their own private island sat on the billions they have made in royalties.


Get your head out of your ---.

 

[Besoeker]

Hillman imp then ?

Sharp cookie!
Had the engine out a few times. Head gasket was a weakness. And I went through a few clutch plates.
Fortunately, the engine was light enough that I could lift it by myself and carry it to the work bench.

 

[snowhead]

b) wouldn't be on here, instead probably on their own private island sat on the billions they have made in royalties.

Damn, been found out.

Put some more Dollars on the fire and let's get this Beach party rocking.

 

[Engineer54]

its an underground house build with concrete NO bricks, more stable that way and more robust (added mesh) so in fact the above ground building will have a 10M deep foundation, possible of holding a 12 storey flat..... in theory.
it would be built in stages starting at the bottom..... foundation, then build the rooms from wooden boards and help in place with scaffold poles and whatever else necessary to hold it together during the curing and drying of the concrete around it (then removed, leaving concrete walls and ceiling), then the same again for the floors above, the only brickwork will be the above ground entrance and garage (plus the power house, which will have a fan on a flat roof to suck the air out and a filter membrane side wall for air coming in(length or the building))

i would include a picture, but i cant 'url' it to a picture on my pc :/

You'll still need columns or floor to ceiling supporting walls in the basement etc, concrete floors can only span certain distances without support. So i'm not sure where you'll be able to fit this extra large swimming pool within the basement. I can't see your posted pictures so i can't see any dimensions as the pictures are far too small to even enlarge without total blurring!!

 

[Knobhead]

thats where you are wrong ...... the equipment is above ground..... the pool is below ground meaning itll need more 'power' to pump the water up
3 x 24KW heating pumps...... 72KW
2 x 3KW filter pumps...... 6KW Krystal Clear Pump and Filter Set 0.95hp pump with 7.9m3 per hour flow rate - Model 3 [Krystal Clear Pump Filter Model3] - £345.00 :
1 x water treatment monitor 3KW
5 x dehumidifiers 9KW Meaco 800i Range Pool Dehumidifiers [Meaco 800i] - £3,633.27 :

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[Geordie Spark]

AT PRESENT, there is no way to make anything which is 100% efficient, let alone 500%. You can't fit a quart into a pint pot, nor can you get a quart out of a pint pot.
Sorry but there is no way to change the laws of physics. Not yet anyway.

..... or two borrels o' dog oot of one borrel.

 

[PEG]

....NOW THEN,i think i have a way the OP can store and use power,not supplied by the grid. In one of my many,zany college projects,i made a generator,which was driven by the "stored" energy in a suspended weight. This was hoisted up 4 sliders via a chain and crank,and used good old gravity to descend and drive a simple gearbox through speed control system no more complicated than centrifugal fly-bobs and a friction collar. This regulated speed,and therefore frequency fairly well,and although its' output was around 1200 watts,you could scale it up to suit your needs. This giant concrete house sounds very heavy,and if you diaphragm walled it to lower level,augered piles at each corner and set bearing stanchions at each corner,you could construct your dream home off a ring beam foundation,secured to bearings at each post. The amount of energy stored in your given mass,in addition to the height raised,and frictional losses,of course,would give you the maximum driving torque available. This would be constant,and as long as loaded,would enable you to calculate the largest possible alternator it could reliably power. Now,all that is left for you to source is a reliable means of hoisting your "mass" or house,in order to keep things running....may i be so bold as to suggest a large handle,and if you are struggling to see what would be winding it up,look no further than the last 9 pages of this post. AND,it was all free and green. :bow:

 

[Rampage]

ah but a 12v starter only ignites the fuel so it doent need to be powerful enough to turn the engine because it doesnt.

it works by expanding gases when fuel is compressed/ignited depending on petrol or diesel

Why does a starter motor have a cog which connects to the teeth around the edge of the flywheel then?

 

[Rampage]

Michael, what they have been getting at over the last 9 pages but have failed to mention, is that electricity wastes a lot of energy in heat (amounst other things). Any motor / transformer etc gets hot, that's energy loss. It's an unwanted part of either converting voltage (transformers) or converting electricity to motion (motors). You most likely have a phone charger (transformer) or drill (motor) there you can check, it will get hot / warm during use. This is energy loss and the reason your ideas won't work. Something small like a phone charger doesn't use much power so doesn't generate much heat, but a larger transformer would.

 

[snowhead]

Any motor / transformer etc gets hot, that's energy loss.

So if he put the transformer and motor in an insulated box they wouldn't loose heat :6:

 

[Besoeker]

So if he put the transformer and motor in an insulated box they wouldn't loose heat :6:

Yes they would. But if the heat can't be dissipated to the outside world, their temperature will just continue to rise untill they cook their bollicks off and fail.

 

[PEG]

...Is that it then? Nothing to fear trip trip tropping over THIS bridge then...:willy_nilly:

 

[davesparks]

do the research....... i know for a FACT that a 12VDC starter CAN run a 48V alternator :/ all you need is the torque to turn the alternator..... which the starter can do as it can start 6L V8 diesel engines with ease


if you think im wrong then show a detailed calculation of how you came to the conclusion the 12VDC motor WONT be powerful enough to turn a 48V alternator at its required revolutions

A 12V DC motor could easily power a 48V alternator, or even a 240V alternator, if you select a powerful enough motor.
What it cannot do is sustain its operation using only the electricity developed in the alternator, the motor will eventually stop turning unless energy is introduced in to the system from an outside source.

Try the first law of thermodynamics and the law of conservation of energy for your proof of this.

Within a closed system energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be converted from one form to another.

So consider a 12V motor driving a 12V alternator which in turn charges a battery which then powers the motor. And assuming the battery is fully charged to start with.
Let's also assume that the battery holds 100 units of energy.

Chemical energy in the battery is converted into electrical energy and a little bit of heat, say 99units of electrical energy and 1 unit of heat energy which is lost.

The electrical energy is transferred through wires to the motor, the motor then converts it into mechanical energy, say 97 units of mechanical energy, 1 unit of heat energy lost from as heat energy as the electricity flows through the wires and 1 unit lost as heat energy through friction in the motor.

The mechanical energy is transferred through a drivebelt to the alternator, friction on the two pulley wheels converts another 1 unit of energy to heat, our total is now 96 units.
The alternator converts the mechanical energy to electrical energy, and again heat losses from friction are 1 unit, with heat losses from the flow of electricity being 1 unit. Total is now 94 units of energy.
The AC electricity from the alternator then has to pass through a rectifier circuit to convert it to DC and then a charging circuit for the battery, these generate a lot of heat too so allow another 2 units of energy loss there.
So now we have 92 units arriving at the battery to recharge it, which is again the conversion of electrical energy to chemical energy, and again there will be losses, let's assume 1 unit is lost here.

The total energy which gets stored in the battery is then 91 units with 9 of the original units having been lost as heat. The system is 91% efficient.

As there is now less energy to turn the motor it will not turn as fast and as a result the losses in the system will increase.

It won't take long for the total amount of energy left in the system is not enough to turn the motor, and so it stops!

 

[PEG]

...Or as an old science lecturer once said ..."boys,friction makes heat,yes?"..."Heat boils water,yes?"..."...so exactly how long would it take for donkey to ---- a bucket of water before we can all have a cup of tea?"...physics has an answer for everything :bow:

 

[Silly Sausage]

...Or as an old science lecturer once said ..."boys,friction makes heat,yes?"..."Heat boils water,yes?"..."...so exactly how long would it take for donkey to ---- a bucket of water before we can all have a cup of tea?"...physics has an answer for everything :bow:

I know, knee burns...OUCH!

 

[gnuuser]

For free power, get a ginormous cage wheel and fill it with hamsters.
The trick is getting them all to run in the same direction.

thats easy put a cage of cats on one side and they will all run away from the cats

 

[Eryrwyn]

http://youtu.be/Fv53K9MnDuM

http://youtu.be/Fv53K9MnDuM

Were you inspired by this video Michael ?....

 

[Dan]

Just bumping some threads in the Electrical Wiring Theories and Regulations forum category here on our Electricians Forums. If this specific topic isn't current, just ignore it, it'll drop off the list in no time. However, if it's something you'd like to contribute to, feel free to reply and bring it back into current discussion.