Problems with a new solar install

[heliosfa]

Ok, will do - tomorrow is set aside for fully documenting the install.

other an photos of the dangling DC, DC cable entry and mounting brackets and everything else asked for in the thread, is there any other info that would be helpful?

I've been having a look at renewable rescue - is there any issue with me involving you/them before I have paid the balance?


i just want to say thanks again - you are all being really helpful.


p.s. is anyone able to give me a rough ballpark figure of how much a 10-panel sun power system with decent inverter installed would be? Just to give me a yard-stick for how cheap/ripoff their price was.

 

[MCS Renewables]

You cannot involve Renewable Rescue until you have given the original installers the opportunity of putting the project right. It's very long winded so you are better off trying to sort it out without going legal. One of the companies a customer had serious issues with just changed its name and re registered and dumped the mess onto RECC.

If you keep supplying photos and information to the forum you can probably come up with a full list of issues and get them all dealt with yourself or get your money back.

As a guide between £6000-£7000 including VAT and EPC .
Includes German SMA inverter and sunny beam

 

[heliosfa]

OK, I have got the photos from my other camera and I have taken a lot more. I've also done a bit more digging and some reading of the install guide from MCS so sorry for the very long post(s).

First up: photos of the physical install.

First picture: one of the brackets going up. I didn't see any tile notching or weather sealing, not to say it didn't happen.


Brackets on the roof - looking quite uneven. Looking at them, they seem a little closer together than my joists?


The actual panels - I did discretely check that they said Sunpower on the back when they were stacked up here.


A couple of the roofer. he looks a little unstable up there...



The DC cables under the pannels have been left dangling like this, with loops and all by the looks:


This appears to be where the entry occurs for three of the DC cables at least - between a bracket and a tile. (sorry for the fuz, a tree decided to get in the way as I was taking the photo)



Inside the loft, there are scome screws sticking out of the joists and it looks like one of the joists has a cracked edge:

 

[heliosfa]

Second up, electrical install.

The DC cable is 4mm^2 and marked as "Solara Photovoltaics Cable 1x4.0mm^2 PV1-F 06/1 KV UV ROHS CE TUB 2PF0 1169/08.07 R609039880". Loop length from inverer to panels to inverter could be 10m to 15m for the top row and 15m to 20m for the bottom row. This is assuming that they were wired up in two strings as discussed with the top 4 pannels on the first string and the bottom 6 pannels on the second string.

The black 3-core AC cable going outthe wall and straight up looks like 2.5mm^2 and is marked "Pesco MN IEMMEQU < HAR> HO5VV-F 3G2.5". The total run length is in the region of 10m to 15m.


The DC cable entry into the property is achieved through a hole made with a hammer in the material under the tiles. They also appear to have made a second hole for some reason? Sticking my fingers into the hole, i could feel the cables pressed between tiles. One of the cables goes in the opposite direction to the other three. During the rain and wind we had last night, there was a lot of wind coming through the hole.


Inside the DC isolator there is a significant amount of exmosed conductor, a number of frayed wires and the gromet securing ring for one of the entry points has undone itself or was never done up:


The Inverter is a SamilPower SolarRiver 3680TL. It is rated at 3.68KW (isn't this too large as it should be 80% to 100% of the panel capacity?) with a DC operating voltage range of 100-550V and a nominal operating voltage of 260V. Inverter max DC input is 20A and max AC output is 16A


The AC cable drop down the outside wall is completely unprotected and has been badly clipped (the sparky was getting very frustrated with the wall, saying that if he carried on he might hit the wall with the hammer in frustration as he could not get the nails into the pebble dash). One of the clips relased in the wind yesterday. The cable entry hole into the property does not appear to have been sealed in any way:



The export meter has been installed so that you cannot compltely move the protective cover out of the way. Cable looks like 2.5mm^2 and the Earth has been joined with a floating chocolate block.



Inside the "SolarDB" there is more exposed copper on the un-isolatable tails (luckily this one is the Neutral) and there are no shutters covering up the screw terminals. There is also frayed copper on the neutral feed to the export meter. The entry point in the bottom of the "SolarDB" cover is much larger than it needs to be - he broke out all of the snap-pieces across the bottom.


I think that that is everything.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Woeful, especially the non fixings into the timber as that must greatly affect the wind risks.

Do not let them back on site again as you have already let them return to put the faults right once.

I would not pay them the £5K balance, although offer them a goodwill payment of £200 on a credit card as then the entire invoice amount and project is covered by the credit card insurance as advised on a similar thread.

They are NAPIT members , NAP 17166 so make a complaint here : - NAPIT - complaints
Direct NAPIT to this thread so they know you this complaint cannot be swept under the carpet.
Get them to send out there own MCS assessor, they have one based in Southampton.
There will be no charge.
When fully satisfied later on put your comments on here so that NAPIT get fair feedback for dealing with the matter.

Send the CEO of RECC an email marked complaint here :- [email protected]
Send her a link to this thread, she loves the fact that installers on this forum are having to police the industry, as the organisation she fronts seems impotent.
(When fully satisfied later on, or not put your comments on here so that RECC get some feedback for dealing with the matter.)

Also start an MCS complaint here : Microgeneration Certification Scheme - Complaints

Make sure you keep copies of all of the paperwork you have received from the company as a customer complaint should trigger an automatic MCS audit. They should also get someone out to go through your entire "Project".

If you are feeling very vindictive send the photos of the idiot stood on the roof to the HSE asking if one man working on the roof with a ladder that obviously has no one footing it is permitted, and comment on how he carried the panels up whilst maintaining a three point of contact on the ladder and ask where we can purchase the invisible safety harnesses as lots of us on this forum would like them.

You can get a RIDDOR form here , How to make a RIDDOR report - RIDDOR - HSE , your photos are great evidence .

 

[Earthstore]

Oh my giddy Aunt, what a shambles, not too sure where to start here, the good news is you have the best panels in the world.
If Health and safety were to see the pic of the chap standing on your roof, no scaffold, no harness and no brain in my opinion, I think there is a fair chance they would shut the company down...
Wouldn't get your system put right though, but a good ace to have up your sleve...
I think you have the right person involved here to help you so I will leave it up to him, too many opinions might not help either you or him to sort this mess out.

Added, there you go he beat me to it...

 

[MCS Renewables]

The DC isolator has four terminals and yours has two PV strings through it so they must have removed the jumpers .

see this ....http://www.scame.com/doc/ZP00860-GB-1.pdf

With these jumpers removed there is a high fire risk due to arcing during switching ......DO NOT TOUCH !!!


Personally have never used less than 4 mm for ANY AC wiring as part of a PV installation and 95% of our installations have 6mm or larger to minimise AC volt drop.
You will need to check with Solar River what the minimum cable size recommendation is.

If it was my home I would switch the whole system off at the AC sub mains board and await / demand a visit from NAPIT and the RECC .

 

[heliosfa]

Thanks for the quick reply, what do you mean by non fixings into the timber? the screws penetrating or the bracket spacing?

How do the cable sizes look? I was thinking of doing the calculations, but if someone already knows if these sizes are OK?

The deposit of £1.6K was paid for on my father's Credit Card (obv this doesn't invoke the Consumer Credit Act protection), but I could make a token payment on my card if they really push...

Re. them coming back, it was only to address the VERY dodgy AC wiring, but I did ask the "maintenance engineer" to check the rest of it, he had a brief look but didnt open any of the isolators, solardb, etc. etc. They have not been made aware of the other issues yet, I take it this does not affect how you recommend dealing with this issue? If not, I will raise the compaints today.

Just to summarise the documentation I have received:

• Datasheet for the Sunpower E20/333 and E20/327 Solar Panels (e-mailed with quotation)
• IWA Deposit Protectioncertificate (received by post the day after they did the "install")
• A single-page letter titled "dear solar investor" telling me that all completeion documentation, excuding completion receipt, EPC certificate, MCS certificate and Workmanship guarantee, are enclosed (handed to me by the installers)
• A part-completed FiT application for Good Energy (given with the "completion pack")
• A key-contacts form, a guide to maximising my system, a "customer cancellation form", a recommend-a-friend scheme thing and an invoice (e-mailed the day after the "installation".

According to the invoice, they charged £2.94K ex VAT for the pannels, £588 for the inverter and £882 for the mounting kit. In the "additional items", they have listed Scaffold, K2 Mounting System and Associated wiring & certification.


PS, what am I likely to be looking at to get this fixed - a complete strip-off and re-install? or is it repairable? What would the likely cost be (just out of curiousity)?

 

[MCS Renewables]

If you paid the initial payment by credit card then you have full protection. You can get your monies back under their insurances.

Switch the system off at new sub mains board for your own peace of mind and make urgent complaints to NAPIT and RECC as detailed above.

Don't pay the installation company any more and don't let them back on site, insist that NAPIT and RECC get an engineer out.

If the company get stroppy with you, your local trading standards office and the HSE website link above are available. You could also direct the company to this thread and they may offer you your monies back plus compensation, who knows.

The rest is up to you, it's so bad it probably needs to come off and start again but you are in a good position as the amount you have paid is covered by the panels you now have and you have credit card insurance.

As previously stated a replacement project with a decent German inverter will be under £7000 including VAT and a non invisible scaffold.

 

[heliosfa]

Oh my giddy Aunt, what a shambles, not too sure where to start here, the good news is you have the best panels in the world.

Thanks Earthstone, I will keep it all in mind.

If it was my home I would switch the whole system off at the AC sub mains board and await / demand a visit from NAPIT and the RECC .

Thanks,

I'm going to get one of my house mates to isolate it today.

What did you mean by non fixings into the timber? the screws penetrating or the bracket spacing?




So the problems that we have identified:

• Very Dangerous AC wiring (partly fixed)
• Very Dangerous DC wiring
• Unprotected exterior AC cabling
• DC cabling under pannels insufficiently secured
• Inapproriate DC cable entry to premises
• Potentially inappropriate inverter siting
• Invapropriately sized inverter
• Damage to/compromise of building weather seal
• Significant lack of documentation
• Uneven panel mounting

No EPC has been done as the property already has a valid one that gives it a "D" apparently.

have I missed anything?

I will start the complaints now, should I CC in the installers?

 

[MCS Renewables]

The fact that the screws may pull out from the timbers under windy conditions as the timbers are split.

You are going to have to deal with the installers tomorrow anyway when they contact you re the outstanding payment.

 

[marc8]

hi heliosfa

picture 5 looks intersting looks like 1.5mm 3core flex feeding meter & out to inverter lets hope it's not to far away then for volt drop.
sorry did not see pics till later does look like 2.5mm 3 core but still a s..t install.

 

[Gavin A]

I'm not sure I'd agree with the full shock horror comments, while it's not great, it's not obvious to me that this is as dangerous as MCS Renewables is indicating.

The DC isolator could well be rated to accept the relatively low voltage and ampage from the 2 strings of these panels with the links removed - we use some k&N isolators in this way with approval from K&N, and it will be low voltage and low ampage, so there would seem to be some conclusions being jumped to here without evidence to support them.

The AC cable probably is UV rated for external use, and I'm not convinced it is particularly undersized for a 3kWp system - it's certainly not dangerously so, though it could result in the inverter tripping out due to overvoltage if the local voltage is relatively high.

The choc block for the earth within the meter is pretty standard, it's allowed because it's within the extended cover of the meter, and there is no earth connection within those meters, so something along these lines has to be done.

The following definitely are issues that you should ask to be addressed, however they're probably not immediately dangerous in my view;

1 - DC cables into DC isolator to ensure not bare wire is visible

2 - DC cables tied up below the panels

3 - DC cable entry should be via the overlaps on the felt, and the holes covered. However IMO this is a relatively minor issue, as no house should be relying on the felt for water proofing, as if you do then the battens will end up rotting fairly quickly and the entire roof will need replacing rather than just the odd tile. It's also the case that in a lot of houses the loft isn't adequately ventilated after having additional insulation fitted, so the extra ventilation through the hole is likely to be beneficial rather than a problem - most damp and mould issues in lofts is from condensation due to inadequate ventilation following loft insulation top up IME.

4 - Roof bolts in rafters, obviously this isn't good, but how much of an issue it is depends on which brackets are affected, if it's just one screw per bracket affected (assuming at least 2 screws per bracket) and what the pull out value is for each screw. The pull out values for some screws used can be such that one properly fixed screw would be sufficient for brackets in the middle of the array, the second effectively supplies redundancy in case one screw doesn't take. That said, I'm amazed to see this on 50 x 75mm rafters, which should be easy to get the screws in properly for. I'd still insist that they sort this out if they're having to take the panels off to sort out the cables, I'm just making the point that the odd screw here and there not being fully in may well not particularly compromise the overall wind loading capability of the entire array depending on the factors detailed above.

4 - AC cable needs to be properly fixed to the wall via rawlplugs and screws if necessary.

In terms of the AC cable showing in the 'solar DB' I've seen a lot worse in factory fitted consumer unit links to the dual RCDs, I'd put that down as nit picking personally.

I would definitely take them to task on their lack of scaffolding, and ensure they had it if they do any further work on the roof. I'd think you'd end up pretty traumatised if the roofer had come off the roof apart from the HSE implications.

So some issues to be addressed, but I'd expect that NAPIT, RECC etc would expect you to give the installation company the chance to address them themselves before they'd consider taking any action.

 

[heliosfa]

So some issues to be addressed, but I'd expect that NAPIT, RECC etc would expect you to give the installation company the chance to address them themselves before they'd consider taking any action.

Thanks Gavin, They have been back once to sort out the bad AC side and they were asked to check the rest of the electrics at the time - so two of their installers think that this is OK.

Should the AC cable be left unprotected as it is? should it not be in conduit or have an RCD?



RE. AC cable size, according to the manual/installation guide for the inverter, 4mm^2 cable and a 25A breaker should be used. They have used 2.5mm^2 and a 20A breaker.

EDIT: If I amreading the "MCB with rated fault current of..." bit on page 16 properly, is the manual saying it needs an RCD?

EDIT2: should both strings be the same length to have the same voltage? the installers said that they were running the top 4 as one string and the lower 6 as a second. I take it that the easiest way to check would be a volt meter?

 

[Gavin A]

AC is protected, it's double insulated cable, so as long as it's UV resistant it can be classed as being ok. Personally we'd have used SWA, but it's not actually necessary as such as it's surface mounted, we just prefer the belt and braces approach. Plastic conduit is only needed if the cable itself isn't UV protected.

20A MCB offers greater protection than 25A, so is fine.

The Dual MPPT inverter means that the voltage of each string can be entirely different.