problems with lights dimming when loads applied (domestic)`

[cypher007]

just had western power out as im fed up of my lights flickering occasionally at night and dimming slightly during the day when we turn say a kettle on.

they put a meter on the supply fuse I went in turned on a 2.2kw kettle and the fan oven result: 242-244v dropping to 232v. this seems a bit high to me. whats the limit?

 

[Dave OCD]

Well I'm thinking that there's a high resistance connection on an overhead line,[Or have WPD checked this out without finding anything already]

 

[cypher007]

Marconi,

the lights are various makes of led bulbs.

 

[marconi]

Thank you for the extra information that your lamps are mostly LED types. You probably know LED are very responsive to the current flow through them hence there use in TV screens.

I suspect you may have a number of electrical problems which are causing your lamps to flicker and dim. The dimming is pretty straightforward to explain - a reduction in mains voltage leading to a reduction in current through the LED lamp and this reduced light output. The discovery by WP of a high resistance or unreliable contact somewhere is probably the best bet to explain the dipping of voltage when you load up the supply be switching on appliances like the electric kettle and electric cooker. A sag of 10 volts is certainly going to be registered by a simply switched on/off GU10 LED lamp and the same too for low voltage LED lamps unless the LED driver in use provides good regulation.

So, further questions are:

a. Are your LED lamps mains or low voltage types and if the latter have you used the correct driver for the lamp in use?

b. Irrespective of the voltage of the LED lamps are you using the correct type of dimmer? Normally the manufacturer advises on what to use to dim their lamps. The usual dimmer for an incandescent lamp uses a technique called leading edge sinusoid current switching whereas LEDS normally require trailing edge switching.

c. Are the dimmers loaded up sufficiently to exceed the minimum load requirement?

d. Are the lamps of one controlled circuit all the same make and model?

So some ideas on what you might investigate.

Could you clarify you problem statement for me? I read it that when you load up your supply by turning on the kettle and cooker you observe dimming and flickering. Am I correct or is it just the dimming that is coincident?

 

[marconi]

Dear Cypher 007 - You will want to know what to do next to resolve your flickering LED lighting if it persists even after WP fix a power supply problem. Earlier I suggested a voltage regulator.

Before that you should ensure compatibility between lamps and their dimmers and/or drivers. If that still does not resolve the problem try purchasing either a resistive load or capacitive load to wire in parallel with the lamps (see their installation instructions for more detail). Danlers UK make such components ; DANLERS Ltd. Energy Saving Lighting Controls & Controls for HVAC - DANLERS, Controls for Lighting & HVAC and TLC-Direct.co.uk supply them with the order code DN RESLOAD and DNCAPLOAD. They cost about £20 and £5 respectively. You would only need one per switched circuit and for starters try the CAPLOAD.

The CAPLOAD when connected across the LED lamp or its driver reduces the lagging power factor and thus makes the impedance of the load on the dimmer more resistive in character. A CAPLOAD should suit smaller total loads of LED lamps. For large LED loads you would need the resistive load but as a consequence have to suffer some waste ohmic heating.

I am assuming your are an electrician. If you are not then installing these components requires an electrician to wire them in safely and correctly.

 

[cypher007]

sorry been busy at work.

the voltage sag is when the kettle 2.2kw and 2kw were applied, so about 4kw and it pulled it 10v.

the flickering dimming of leds, I have observed a similar issue in a house in the same road I visited one night, they were incandescent bulbs.

one other house has apparently called in a similar fault. so it would seem the whole road is having voltage issues due to load changes.

my leds are dimmable and I have used varilight led compatible dimmers.

the fridge light can be seen to do it when my immersion solar pv diverter switches the element on and off, 3kw load, and that is an incandescent.

 

[marconi]

Dear Cypher007,


In your own home you have, electrically speaking, a complex network of sources of power (the mains supply, your PV panels and inverter), stored energy in rotating electrical machines, and various loads - resistive, reactive and waveform switched (ie by dimmers and your immersion heater element diverter).

And by the sounds of it a 'weak' distribution line perhaps with faults and also for added measure a garage (for servicing cars?) operating electric tools, compressors, arc welding, car lifts, etcetera.

All this means that from what might seem like a simple electrical event - the switching on/off of a resistive load for example not just in your own home but without - electrical interactions are taking place leading to voltage disturbances.

I still think the way ahead is first to await WP's investigation. But if their remedial work does not stop the problem try substituting a conventional incandescent lamp for one of your LED lamps to see if the flickering stops on that circuit but not the others. If it does try then the CAPLOAD or RESLOAD on your LED circuits to see if that/they stop the flickering. Give DANLERS technical help-line a ring for advice on what to purchase.

If all fails then I think you are at the stage of buying a voltage regulator. Again, this requires an electrician to select a suitable regulator and then to install, because one must take into account your PV supply, immersion diverter and large ohmic loads eg: Shower, cooker, heaters, kettle.

Please keep the Electricians' Forum up dated on progress. Apart from the interest it is how we all learn from each others experience.

PS: Your PV inverter behaves like an synchronous alternator and so has a 'load angle' which I called D in my earlier think-piece. It will be leading when generating and feeding in to the grid. However, when there is a sudden change in load (or pv generation) the load angle will hunt briefly until a new equilibrium is established. Another source of electrical oscillations.

 

[marconi]

abcdef

 

[cypher007]

thanks for the reply. I will see what the wp monitor finds. though they didn't seem hopeful that they would be digging up the road any time soon. I get the impression its one of those situations where if not enough people hassle them they hope it goes away.

re. the garage, the light dimming stuff usually happens at night when they are closed. I am wondering as I sit hear if its someone in my road on economy 7 with storage heaters, though Ive seen it do it even at 9 at night.

re. my diverter, its a pretty simple thing on the switching side at least. it uses a triac which is controlled on and off, like a light switch, via an Arduino computer. nothing scary like phase chopping or inverter controlled.

 

[DPG]

My money's on a high resistance neutral in supply feed to the row of houses.. Daz

 

[marconi]

thanks for the reply. I will see what the wp monitor finds. though they didn't seem hopeful that they would be digging up the road any time soon. I get the impression its one of those situations where if not enough people hassle them they hope it goes away.

re. the garage, the light dimming stuff usually happens at night when they are closed. I am wondering as I sit hear if its someone in my road on economy 7 with storage heaters, though Ive seen it do it even at 9 at night.

re. my diverter, its a pretty simple thing on the switching side at least. it uses a triac which is controlled on and off, like a light switch, via an Arduino computer. nothing scary like phase chopping or inverter controlled.

By Marconi - Thank you for your last posts. They provide even more evidence with which to pursue the investigation of flickering disturbance. If you can provide any snippets of detail such as:

a. Roughly how many homes on your supply - does not have to be by phase.
b. What kind of street lighting and when it switches on.
c. Do other folk have PV? How many?
d. Are there any wind turbines nearby? How many?
e. Are there any food establishments sharing your street's supply? I am thinking of their use of fridges/freezers/microwaves/bottle-washers/hand-dryers/drink chillers & cellar coolers.
f. Is the flickering most noticeable over a certain hours in the week and weekend? Are these time slots different in any way ie: earlier starting or later finishing. Trying to relate to people's activity.
g. Does flickering tend to occur on the hour (or half hour) when TV programmes start/stop and folk dash for a wee and a tea?
h. Mains drainage or cess-pit with pumping equipment?
i. Overhead supply or underground? If overhead, does the bottom neutral conductor look thinner than the 3 line conductors? - Even if same csa it may be significantly undersize to conduct the in-phase and harmonic currents without appreciable voltage-drop and ohmic heating.. If you know or can see - how far from 400/230V transformer.
j. Do you know of anyone with a 'posh' kitchen using an induction hob?
k. Are there many teenagers who might be using their computers and game boxes powered by switch-mode power supplies?
l. Any electric cars being charged?

 

[marconi]

thanks for the reply. I will see what the wp monitor finds. though they didn't seem hopeful that they would be digging up the road any time soon. I get the impression its one of those situations where if not enough people hassle them they hope it goes away.

re. the garage, the light dimming stuff usually happens at night when they are closed. I am wondering as I sit hear if its someone in my road on economy 7 with storage heaters, though Ive seen it do it even at 9 at night.

re. my diverter, its a pretty simple thing on the switching side at least. it uses a triac which is controlled on and off, like a light switch, via an Arduino computer. nothing scary like phase chopping or inverter controlled.

Dear cypher007. I have highlighted two parts of your last post. I will cover the first now and the second after the rugby Barbars - Fiji.

In order to provide some more evidence of line faults to twist WP's arm, so to speak, might you, but ideally WP, measure the PSSC and/or Ze ateach premise and if it is an overhead line supply, note down which phase conductor and pole the supply is connected to.

Then, plot on a piece of paper: along the bottom axis at equal intervals the pole/house number, left-to-right away from the transformer and up the vertical axis the PSSC /Ze by phase (if you can) against each premise/pole. If there is a conductance fault one would expect/might see a change in slope corresponding to the location on the line where it exists. Methinks WP could not argue against that. Other home owners have an interest in cooperating to take the measurements.

if it is a TNS supply and you measure PEFC too you could get maybe a clue on whether it is a line or neutral fault. if your test equipment has the facility also measure neutral-earth loop impedance and plot as well.

 

[marconi]

re. my diverter, its a pretty simple thing on the switching side at least. it uses a triac which is controlled on and off, like a light switch, via an Arduino computer. nothing scary like phase chopping or inverter controlled.

I did some research on the theory and its electrical implementation in PV-Immersion Diverters. I discovered that they are 'quite scary' and infamous for causing troublesome flicker. It is becasue they opereate the triac switch for the immersion heater element in a 'burst fire mode' - so many whole cycles on followed by a number of cycles off. By gradually increasing the length of the on burst to the off burst the diverter regulates the average power consumed by the immersion element. it is significant too that this scheme switches the immersion element on by applying the full mains supply across the element so when switched on there is a step up of 12Amps current drawn dropping suddenly to zero when the triac is switched off. Depending on the algorithm/software of the controller the switching is in the single to low decades of Hertz, and thus within the irritating flicker effect band. It seems, from what research I have done so far, the earlier controllers did not take flicker problems in to account but later and perhaps more expensive diverters do or have an optional 'anti-flicker' mode.

In the same way that switching on your kettle, etcetera is dimming your lighting, the diverter is switching on/off the immersion and causing lower frequency dips to the mains voltage affecting your home and others I suspect. It will also cause harmonics, sub-harmonics and intermodulation currents - and thus a reduction in voltage quality.

Maybe some other folk in your street have PV and diverters which are producing switching current affecting you?

I think that the PV & Diverter switching 'pollution' is made worse by your street's supply having an insufficiently low impedance for some reason yet to be discovered.

Of course this explanation only makes sense when your PV system is generating electricity and thus when there is enough sunlight illuminating the panels.

Do you think this is some explanation if not the whole one? Take a look at the PV diverter literature and let me know the make and model too for me to research it on-line. Probably worth phone call to the Diverter maker's technical team.

 

[cypher007]

wow Marconi, I feel like you take this stuff real serious.

WP are fitting a monitor this Friday. I only have a multimeter.

some interesting ideas. there is maybe 4 houses, at least 2, that have PV in my road and an adjacent road.

the overhead WP think has been buried.
the light flickering dimming is usually at night, apart from the dimming that my diverter causes.
the diverter has an anti flicker function that I have switch on. it only does long on periods or short based on my export, no rapid bursts.

this is the unit I built:
http://mk2pvrouter.co.uk/33001.html

 

[marconi]

I remain suspicious about the diverter because even though it should not be turning the immersion on when the pv installation is not generating it could be doing so spuriously. My reason is that I have taken a quick look at the triac output board for this unit and cannot see any snubber circuit (a series RC network) across A1 and A2 of the triac (see http://mk2pvrouter.co.uk/media/f38a139f4c26bb68ffff809ed4355564.pdf).

Such a snubber circuit reduces the likelihood the triac will turn on as a result of fast rise mains voltage transients above 230V. I am also trying to confirm whether the gate drives are sufficiently filtered to prevent electrical noise across gate-cathode junctions causing false triggering: again I'd expect to see a capacitor in parallel with the a resistor between one of the anodes and the gate to act as a decoupler and twisted pairs or screened wires to make the connections. Also, triacs are best triggered for reliability when A2 and the gate have the same polarity - I have yet to work out if the opto-electronic driver does that. I have the data sheets on the triac and driver to read through and will get back to you.

All this sensitivity to spurious triggering becomes worse as the triac body temperature rises. Is your diverter in a warm location?

 

[marconi]

Once WP have connected up their monitoring equipment Fri 4 Sep 15 and it has been in use for a few weekdays and weekend, could you isolate completely the diverter on the supply side and note when you did? After a few weekdays and weekend, switch it back on again, noting the time and date. Be sure to let WP have this information for their analysis of the records. While it is off see if you notice less or no flickering and dimming of your lighting other than of course that caused by kettles and ovens being turned on.