PV immersion heater proportional control

[echase]

require hard-wiring and citing in and around the consumer unit, hence why some installers will not touch these products with a barge pole.

Don’t understand the problem. Installation in that position is really simple unless there is no space there. PV installers are usually wiring in that region so adding a diverter is a trivial extra task. A totally plug in solution using 13 amp plugs might be easier but few immersions uses 13A plugs so hard wiring is needed. I’d not trust a 13 plug/socket to pass 13A reliably long term so I’d not supply such a product. E.g. how do you know the customer's socket is not in poor shape?

Current distortion is a problem for the DNOs because of all the many switched mode supplies (SMPS) in service. SMPS tend to consume most of their current in the 60-100 degrees phase angle region as per:-

http://www.ieee.li/pdf/viewgraphs/harmonics.pdf Section 1.4

Power factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Section Non-sinusoidal components

which show a short triangular current spike centred on 70-80 degrees

A phase angle controller, when at other than full or zero power, on average consumes its power later than 90 degrees and it’s not as spiky as for an SMPS, unless at low powers (>120 degrees) when the spikes are not that high anyway. Phase fired controllers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So it’s filling in the gap in the last half of the SMPS’s cycle.

Therefore if I were a DNO I’d quite welcome some phase controlled devices onto the supply to compensate for SMPSs or at least be ambivalent about it. It’s not perfect compensation and so I’d not recommend a street full of phase controlled diversion boxes, but I don’t see a problem with a few. There is no adverse effect on the rest of the electrical devices in a property or in its neighbours, unlike with burst firing, as long as a decent EMC filter is used. It’s only the DNO that might notice some distortion if there were too many of them.

A PWM device is one solution but they will be expensive and you have to have a screened wire between the device and the immersion due to the very high switching speed of the PWM that causes this wire to radiate EMI. In my house it is well nigh impossible to access this wire to change it and in almost any house this will involve significant work. So it will add a lot of cost.

 

[danesol]

echase - any comment ??

So apart from the cost deferential, what are the advantages if any, of the Immersun unit over say the Solar immersion mk3 Switch for example ??

 

[echase]

echase - any comment ??

Sorry, nothing to do with me. Not our units. All I can say is that the Intelligent Immersion is well proven, reliable and does not use burst firing. And cheaper than many.

 

[danesol]

Sorry, nothing to do with me. Not our units. All I can say is that the Intelligent Immersion is well proven, reliable and does not use burst firing. And cheaper than many.

Which btw are yours ( Ive assume solar immersion ) ??

and what others are there as personally I only know of 3 units which do this - all completely different prices and all not wanting to explain how they stop flickering - lol

 

[danesol]

Thank you for the info its given me 1 more reason to buy the Vauxhall Ampera

Great car btw

 

[echase]

Which btw are yours ( Ive assume solar immersion ) ??

and what others are there as personally I only know of 3 units which do this - all completely different prices and all not wanting to explain how they stop flickering - lol

I am trying hard to restrict my posts on this forum to general discussion and not use it for advertising but you have forced me into it. See our website www.intelligent-immersion.co.uk If you use burst firing you may well get flicker. If you don’t you don’t. As we don’t we don’t.

 

[danesol]

I am trying hard to restrict my posts on this forum to general discussion and not use it for advertising but you have forced me into it. See our website www.intelligent-immersion.co.uk If you use burst firing you may well get flicker. If you don’t you don’t. As we don’t we don’t.

Think I might just order one of these......... as the "price is right........."

 

[danesol]

I have recently commissioned a 5kw wind turbine.
I requested a device to reduce export of power and they offered and fitted the immersun.
The switch has most of the bells and whistles I wanted but unfortunately my lights flickered to such an extent, when the surplus was being fed into the immersion, that I complained.
The turbine company researched the switch more carefully and decided the device was not really legal as it had no approval, so they want to remove it. This, they say, applies to all burst fire switches.
I checked out as many switches as pos and believe the Solar immersion does not use this system.
It has more or less the same options as the Immersun so I will opt for this if the turbine company agrees with me. Electronics are a bit mind blowing.

I believe it is essential to have at least 2 circuits to switch to, however what I would really like is a device which can remotely, via the ring main, switch on a selection of loads with sensing switches using various frequencies.
This would allow loads drawing from a ring main to take power when it is available or in rotation.

Regarding the immersion heater, If I cant find the remote switching I propose to EXTRACT heat from the tank when it is fully hot by running a selection of radiators through the indirect coil. This will cool the bottom area and the power will be redirected to the tank to replenish it. The pump would run when the relay diverts to the second service.
If anybody sees a flaw in this please advise.
MOST especially, if there is an electronics wizard out there will he direct me to a remote switching product.
Perhaps the switch manufacturers who read and contribute to this discussion could consider adding this to their product.

Could these not be used in conjunction with SolarImmersion or Immersun units ???

http://www.diykyoto.com/store/assets/0000/0936/Optiplug_Brochure_web.pdf

EDIT:- or these

http://www.sailwider-smartpower.com...nitoring-and-control-system-solar-version.htm

 

[echase]

Could these not be used in conjunction with SolarImmersion or Immersun units ???

http://www.diykyoto.com/store/assets/0000/0936/Optiplug_Brochure_web.pdf

Think you will find they only talk to a Wattson energy monitor.

Their overall concept may work for mixit but I think you need to ask about long term reliability. Units like ours may have been criticised above for being hard wired in but when you look at a Wattson type product with sensors on small jack plugs you have to ask whether it’s still going to be working in 3-5 years time. I have a cheap energy monitor with plugs like that and you have to waggle the plugs occasionally to keep it working. I also have had 3 Wattson weather stations and their average life is only 2 years before irretrievably breaking down with PCB faults. Not saying this will definitely apply to their energy products but it needs to be looked at.

A ruggedly built reliable unit is needed in this market and not one with built in obsolescence. I do happen to work as a safety and reliability engineer when not designing solar products so design safety and reliability into our product.

 

[danesol]

Well the first manufacturer to bring out decent "remote switched plugs" to use in conjunction with their Immersion Control kit for home automation will have access to some of my slush fund immediately.............. as I am desperate for such ability !

 

[SibertSolar]

Ahem.....see here and here for a couple of downloadable brochures relating to Greenologic's Elios4You platform. It's essentially an accurate monitoring platform that will have control bolt-on features available over coming weeks, including wireless smart sockets & wireless proportional immersion control (phase angle, not burst-fire) and other features later on in the year.

If anyone wants to discuss further then feel free to contact me off-line or via PM etc,

Andy

 

[lydart]

Ahem.....see here and here for a couple of downloadable brochures relating to Greenologic's Elios4You platform. It's essentially an accurate monitoring platform that will have control bolt-on features available over coming weeks, including wireless smart sockets & wireless proportional immersion control (phase angle, not burst-fire) and other features later on in the year.

If anyone wants to discuss further then feel free to contact me off-line or via PM etc,

Andy

I like the look of your system but would be concerned on how quickly the initial investment could be recovered. I have just installed the SolarImmersion Mk3 (£209) and it is working really well.
Hopefully I'll be in profit after a couple of years.

It will be interesting to see how the market for these devices develops but I can't see any product with a long payback period being very successful.

 

[danesol]

Exactly unless its packaged as part of s total solution for energy saving for say the householder

 

[Worcester]

Andy's solution is a good piece of kit - at the sheap end - for your 'remote control' of sockets, you've got this:

though of course the sockets are 'on' or 'off'. Renewable Energy Management Unit REMU I - UK Starter Kit with RF Switch

 

[thushar]

SolarImmersion Mark III (SolarImmersion - Surplus Solar Energy Water Heater | ) proportional controller surplus pv divert switch now at special offer - Price reduced to £229 (was £249)