qualifaction meanings and requirments

[Graham Coughlan]

Hey guys

A few questions about the 2391 and the eal inspection and testing course level3.

Been on the EAL course for a year now and soon to finish it. I assumed it held the same weight as the 2391 but ive now been told i still have to do that course after this one!

So does this course fron EAL hold no weight or can i use this course instead or the other one considering it covers the same.

Its getting a bit depressing now because its becoming really hard to find an electrical job and its so confusing with all these courses

Could someone please explain these to me

Cheers

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

I've never heard the EAL Level 3 mentioned before so to me that can't be a good thing. Whenever anyone I know has talked about doing their testing and inspection course, "2391" always gets said, never "EAL Level 3". After having a quick look on the internet it read like the EAL course allows you to certify periodic inspections but not full tests?

I might be completely wrong in everything I've just said by the way. Just how I see things from my viewpoint.

 

[Risteard]

After having a quick look on the internet it read like the EAL course allows you to certify periodic inspections but not full tests?

In fairness no course (including City & Guilds courses) can allow you to do or disallow you from doing anything. You must be competent, not qualified. Competence includes training and experience.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

In fairness no course (including City & Guilds courses) can allow you to do or disallow you from doing anything. You must be competent, not qualified. Competence includes training and experience.

Then why do we do courses to gain qualifications if we don't need them?

 

[Plonker 3]

Then why do we do courses to gain qualifications if we don't need them?

To prove competence.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

To prove competence.

Thus making Risteard's statement incorrect: "You must be competent, not qualified."

 

[Plonker 3]

Well proving competence is the big thing, I know a few people who can drive a car competently but don't have a licence, on the other hand I know people with a driving licence who can't drive.

Who is a judge going to be more lenient on should both appear before him for the same driving offence?

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

Well said! I was thinking along the lines of apprentices and electricians mates, how they can be seen as competent persons yet they aren't qualified.
To go back to the OP though, I'm prettty sure you need your 2391-10 to be able to test and inspect as a qualified person and not just a competent one.

 

[trev]

The bottom line here is what is viewed as THE qual to have by employers. How many job ads have you seen that specify this EAL version that I've never even heard of until I read this thread. I'm sure it's a decent informative course but is it going to help you get anywhere?
I'm sorry to say mate I think you've been sold a pig in a poke

 

[leckyant]

Graham
Get out of the game mate. We,re being wizzed with technical jargon from the authorities, dumbed down by the Ltd companies and the agencies.
Go find yourself an acre of land and grow some veg!

Ant A retired spark at 52

 

[Risteard]

Thus making Risteard's statement incorrect: "You must be competent, not qualified."

With respect I don't believe that what I said was incorrect. At the end of the day, God forbid that there should be a question of competence, then ultimately that will be decided by a court and not by any body issuing qualifications.

 

[Adam W]

How come you chose this 'EAL' over City & Guilds? From what I can make out this 'EAL' is aimed more at domestic installers rather than electricians.

 

[Barneyb57]

The EAL Level 2 course is a recognised qualification which is on par with City and Guilds its just a different course/qualification provider,,usualy comes with the Part P qualification,,,the one I have recently done also encompasses the JIB ECS Card qualification, all legal and above board,, it allows Domestic Installers to sign off their OWN work.likewise with 2392...it is a good course and covers aspects of domestic installations,,,I did it as a means to refresh and to a point update my existing quals as a former Electrician looking to return to the trade after leaving the Army,,,I have also done the 17th Edition,,,,,last time I worked professionaly as an electrician we were on the 15th edition, I have just also done the inspection and testing Course and the exams...(awaiting the results to come through),,,

What does cause confusion with all this,, and I can sort of concur with the original poster on this,,,,you can be Part P, or 2391 or 2392 Qualified, but neither qual means anything unless you are registered with the NICEIC, ECA, NAPIT, etc, etc, in respect of certificating your or others work, in short You HAVE TO BE REGISTERED...

Which leads me on to another point,,,,as I am now near leaving the service and looking to get back into the trade/indusryobvioulsy I am looking at jobs that are advertised,, and I am wondering if these employment agencies and indeed in some cases companies that are looking to employ an electrician or a Maintenance Electrician,,, they do seem to expect every Electrician to be 2391 qualified, why? Surely a large company is the registered body and not every single electrician in their employ needs to be 2391,, doesnt mean a thing if they personaly are not registered does it?? so why would a registered company need all their employee's to be registered,,,is it a case of being Inspection and Testing Trained, as in having done the course but not hold the actual qualification,,just because you dont have the qualification does not mean that you do not know how to test and inspect...what it does mean is that you cannot sign the work off and issue a Certificate,,,but would you need to as the Company you work for would do that.

Seems to me that these agencies and some non electrical companies that want to recruit an electrician to their maintenance teams do not really understand the puprpose of Part P, 2391 and 2392 qualifications and even to some extent the 17th edition, as they are not always relevant to the individuals role/job...and as said mean nothing unless you are registered..they see it as just another electrical qualification and then insist on everyone having it,,,when they really do not understand what its all about...

For instance..I recently saw a job advertised for a Marine Electrician,,,wanted to work ON SHIPS/YACHTS and BOATS on all Marine Electrical Installations,,,the Applicant MUST hold the 17th Edition......Why? because unless Im mistaken the 17th Edition Wiring regulations BS 7671 that we all know and love,,, do not apply to Marine Electricial Installations on Ships/Yachts/Boats,, as I understand it.....

Your thoughts please...

 

[Adam W]

For instance..I recently saw a job advertised for a Marine Electrician,,,wanted to work ON SHIPS/YACHTS and BOATS on all Marine Electrical Installations,,,the Applicant MUST hold the 17th Edition......Why? because unless Im mistaken the 17th Edition Wiring regulations BS 7671 that we all know and love,,, do not apply to Marine Electricial Installations on Ships/Yachts/Boats,, as I understand it.....

Your thoughts please...

They stipulate that where I work. While BS7671 doesn't apply to boats the principles of electricity still apply so BS7671 is a good standard to follow in the absence of anything else. As it happens there are a set of special marine regulations although the company would be asking a lot for agency electricians to hold a special marine electrical qualification.
As I've mentioned before, my local college insist you must hold a full qualification (such as 2330) before enrolling for the 2382, likewise you must hold 2382 before enrolling on 2391, so you know that someone who has a 2391 from that college will have a decent set of qualifications.
Sadly not all training providers do this so confusion arises.

While 2391 may be an 'inspecting and testing qualification' it doesn't have to be specifically for someone to fill in inspection and testing forms - you will need to know what the inspector will be looking for in order to install it to their requirements, so the 2391 is a useful qualification to have even if you never touch a test instrument.

Many people on here will tell you that this "part P qualification" is essentially a waste of money - if offers an introduction to building regs to satisfy scheme providers, in the same way as the 2392 offers an introduction to inspection & testing.
I've never seen any employer ask for these qualifications, and their content is included in the 2330; again they seem to be aimed more towards domestic installers.

 

[Barneyb57]

Should be ineteresting come December when it all changes from the 2391/2 to 2394/5,,,whats going to happen then,, will they expect everyone to go and re qual in 2394/5,,,,same course, same qual just a different name, or will they still recognise the 2391/2??

I did originally the C & G Parts 1 and 2 236 electrical installations,,,people often say whats that?? too many people out there for my likeing not accepting peoples quals simply because they are not what they read....236 = 2330 hmm never heard of 236 so will disregard it...hence no invitation for interview/job offer....and its happening again now with the EAL v City and Guilds,,,because EAL is a new thing people see it, dont know what it is and your applications in the bin they dont realise or in most cases even bother find out what it is,, if they did then they would know that it is equivilent of the City and Guilds...its just a new and different provider of Training and qualifications perfectly legal and Officialy recognised. in respect of Inspection and Testing,, I have recently done the course 5 day course City and Guilds Now although I have not yet had the results of the course back,, as we were told this would 4 to 6 weeks to come through what I do have is a certificate that says that I have successfully completed a Course in Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations,,,,that to me says that I can test and Inspect, and that I have been or received training to do that,,,,so is that enough for some employers especially if Im not Certifying mine or other peoples work,,,but I am Competent to test and inspect an installation. to me its a fine play on words...

I note your comments on the BS 7671 and the Marine Regulations and yes the principles are the same,,,,but much of the equipment and cable used is not,,,so I dont think they should be allowed to put a firm stipulation of MUST BE 17th Edition on the list of requirements for applying for the Job,,,,that must put a large amount of good Sparkies off from applying for a job of that kind...which in turn must serve only to cut down thier Pool of applicants to recruit from, and they could be looking for months for someone to fit the job role unneccesarily...