Qualifications

[Andy78]

Re: inspection and testing

I got a DCM once

Was it a result of a FIFO situation ?

 

[Sparky 63]

Re: inspection and testing

YOU COULD DOWNLOAD pART P - BUT COULD YOU DOWNLOAD A PASS FOR 2391 ELECTRICAL TESTING & INSPECTION I THINK NOT MATE

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Re: inspection and testing

Lol.
To be honest, it's these types of threads which keep me from bothering with taking the 2391.
Perhaps if there were a qualification for people who instruct those with the 2391, then I might consider it?

 

[Pete999]

Re: inspection and testing

Whats a dcm mate

Don't Come Monday

 

[GB.Kayak]

Re: inspection and testing

Don't Come Monday

An old favourite of my dad's is "award yourself a 'CDM'" ... Cadbury's Dairy Milk!

 

[GB.Kayak]

Re: inspection and testing

Then you know full well there is NO Requirement for an electrician to hold this non electrical qualification. All you need to do is read the bloody thing as and when required.

More fool the site agent/clerk of works, if he is allowing non compliance work being carried out, be it the electricians or plumbers...

I agree that this qualification is not required by all electricians ... but that does not mean that 'there is NO Requirement for an electrician to hold this non electrical qualification'. Many electricians work where there is no site agent or clerk of works; what then? Surely that is why the LABC exists in the domestic sector. In these situations, some of which are not 'notifiable', it is down to the professionalism or otherwise of the tradesman to comply with the regulations just as much as it is to do with good electrical design or safe isolation! The negative impact of poor workmanship on the structural or fire integrity, let alone other more 'esoteric' requirements for the health of a building or its occupants can often have as serious if not immediate effect. A professional Tradesperson would do as you say ... but only if they are trained to do so! For some tradesmen this qualification is the route to the required knowledge and the proof that they at least have an awareness of the requirements. The last 'piece of the jigsaw' is still their professionalism or otherwise.

In my experience as owner and tenant of a number of properties the lack of knowledge or skill possessed by many tradespeople in this area has as serious an impact on the health and well being of building and occupant as their competence in their 'professed' trade. Either that, or 'slap dash' workmanship applies.

 

[ian.settle1]

Re: inspection and testing

YOU COULD DOWNLOAD pART P - BUT COULD YOU DOWNLOAD A PASS FOR 2391 ELECTRICAL TESTING & INSPECTION I THINK NOT MATE

If you know the right places to go

 

[TJ Anderson]

Re: inspection and testing

Exactly. Many main contractors won't let us work without asbestos awareness. So without this 'non-electrical' certificate we cannot practise our work as electricians on their sites.

Also these Certs are about showing someone (site manager) who has no electrical knowledge that we have been taught to a certain level and are 'competent'. I am still of the opinion that my Certs are worth something. I am fully aware that this is only my opinion. But no one can take that away from me.

Absolutely. Engineer 54 is in China so British Building Regs is not really his thing. lol

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Re: inspection and testing

At the particular site I am working at, to my knowledge two people with supposed electrical knowledge/experience have been allowed to work on site, despite being unable to produce a JIB/ECS card.
One was a Mate, the other a supposedly qualified Electrician.
Both only had basic CSCS cards.

 

[Anthony S]

Re: inspection and testing

Exactly. Many main contractors won't let us work without asbestos awareness. So without this 'non-electrical' certificate we cannot practise our work as electricians on their sites.

Asbestos Awareness course can be passed on-line that hardly shows your competent to know when you have come across some.

Understanding the Building Regulations is hardly rocket science and passing an open book exam hardly proves your competent.

 

[Anthony S]

Re: inspection and testing

My electrical Certs don't prove that I am competent at installing electrics. Just means I passed an exam once. You are dead right. It is not rocket science. But at least it shows someone who has no clue that you are willing to pay for a course and keep looking to improve yourself. Especially with the numbers out there looking for jobs, it could be this small part P 'bolt on' that gets you the next job over the guy next to you that didn't.

If you don't have what a job advert wants, chances are you won't get a start, a few examples off UJ and nearly all agency. No disrespect mate, but none really want to see the P word because they work to a script set up by the Electrical companies looking for labour and they know what they want in the way of an Electrician.

Im currently recruiting for experienced JIB electricians for a long term project in Central London

You must have JIB/ECS, your own tools and full PPE

You must submit an up to date CV and a copy of your JIB card, both front and back.

To apply for this position you will need a valid JIB card. Please send CVs to

 

[Engineer54]

Re: inspection and testing

I agree that this qualification is not required by all electricians ... but that does not mean that 'there is NO Requirement for an electrician to hold this non electrical qualification'. Many electricians work where there is no site agent or clerk of works; what then? Surely that is why the LABC exists in the domestic sector. In these situations, some of which are not 'notifiable', it is down to the professionalism or otherwise of the tradesman to comply with the regulations just as much as it is to do with good electrical design or safe isolation! The negative impact of poor workmanship on the structural or fire integrity, let alone other more 'esoteric' requirements for the health of a building or its occupants can often have as serious if not immediate effect. A professional Tradesperson would do as you say ... but only if they are trained to do so! For some tradesmen this qualification is the route to the required knowledge and the proof that they at least have an awareness of the requirements. The last 'piece of the jigsaw' is still their professionalism or otherwise.

In my experience as owner and tenant of a number of properties the lack of knowledge or skill possessed by many tradespeople in this area has as serious an impact on the health and well being of building and occupant as their competence in their 'professed' trade. Either that, or 'slap dash' workmanship applies.

So what's the point in holding this qualification, if you can even call it that, seeing as it's yet another open book joke qualification?? Nothing to stop anyone downloading a copy of the building Reg's to keep in your van or whatever. You don't need a qualification to read do you?? Or are you suggesting that electricians should now hold this qualification as a requirement?? I know what sort of replies you'll get to that suggestion...lol!!

As for your last paragraph, i suggest that you only employ bona fide tradesmen that you know and know what they're doing, rather than going for the cheapest Charlie that gives you a price...

 

[Engineer54]

Re: inspection and testing

Exactly. Many main contractors won't let us work without asbestos awareness. So without this 'non-electrical' certificate we cannot practise our work as electricians on their sites.

Also these Certs are about showing someone (site manager) who has no electrical knowledge that we have been taught to a certain level and are 'competent'. I am still of the opinion that my Certs are worth something. I am fully aware that this is only my opinion. But no one can take that away from me.

Hang on, you're now comparing general building regulations to a site sensitive H&S regulation, these are two completely different entities, there is no comparison....

 

[GB.Kayak]

Re: inspection and testing

So what's the point in holding this qualification, if you can even call it that, seeing as it's yet another open book joke qualification?? Nothing to stop anyone downloading a copy of the building Reg's to keep in your van or whatever. You don't need a qualification to read do you?? Or are you suggesting that electricians should now hold this qualification as a requirement?? I know what sort of replies you'll get to that suggestion...lol!!

As for your last paragraph, i suggest that you only employ bona fide tradesmen that you know and know what they're doing, rather than going for the cheapest Charlie that gives you a price...

Having not completed an indentured apprenticeship, I do not know what is and is not covered in either a 'traditional' apprenticeship, pre 19??, when such things were a valuable commodity or one of the newer qualifications which are a very poor copy and 'stand in' their place. Those aware of such things, building regulations or those for H&S for that matter, and who pay attention to them do not need a qualification. Their professionalism in seeking out the regulations in life and, once understood, committing them to mind and applying them is the hallmark of their professionalism. However, for someone who has yet to gain knowledge or awareness of these things, clearly the subject needs to be introduced and understanding tested.


I wholeheartedly agree with your point regarding bona fide tradespeople. Unfortunately, in order to sort the good from the bad, you need to have the personal knowledge of their workmanship, and perhaps an understanding of what they are doing! Which is difficult to gain without employing them in the first place ... something of a catch '22' don't you agree? Clearly your strongly expressed views on a qualifications base that is 'worth its salt' is valid and I share it! It is all the more difficult with a population that is more and more mobile. In my youth, after you were well established in your own career, our family solicitor was a friend of the family and the local tradespeople were known personally, family members or friends of family members, 'staunch members of the community'.


We have been both fortunate and unfortunate in our choices of tradesmen. I would trust my life to our one eyed Cornish 'Roofer', but not as readily or completely to our stone mason; more importantly to most of his staff. Why, because the roofer always does his best to ensure his own safety, that of the people around him and the security of my property from the many risks that he has become aware of in his 25-30 year career! The stone mason's ability to carve stone is excellent as is that of his staff entrusted with that same responsibility but he does not have the same level of experience. However, his staff's attention paid to their own H&S at times, their lack of open honesty about mistakes and minor misdemeanours and the boss' weak leadership in addressing these things leave our working relationship wanting! That said, their approach is a long way from the blatant disregard for 'common sense' for which read paying attention to regulations, good practice or good taste shown by previous owners and the work that they or the tradespeople that they employed have done.


Buildings do not come with a 'full service history', OEM or otherwise, and until you peel back the 'layers' of repair or modification you do not find out what negligence has been involved in their construction, maintenance or development! My own property was built and modified over ~ 40 years with initial construction in 1876. It was built by a 'builder' of the time, in some places delicately ornate but with flaws in the design details. These flaws together with later additions which were introduced without knowledge of the original flaws or introduced flaws of their own have lead to the failure by water ingress leading to dry rot of the main timber beams supporting the structure over the bay windows.


My own position is that training and professional development is the keystone ... I do however have serious concerns regarding the split between the competent tradesman and the 'professional' specifier, for which read engineer or architect. Historically the master tradesman had responsibility for both roles together with that of material specifier and quality control. There was only one buck, and it stopped with him! He knew what worked practically because he had done the practical stuff, much like I imagine your career route through apprenticeship to 'chief engineer'. Unfortunately, that route is now often split according to the 'cerebral competence' of the individual. Those who can remember facts and manipulate highly conceptual stuff mentally go to university and become 'Engineers' and those of a more practical persuasion become the tradesmen and technicians. There is a route to professional engineer but it is more protracted and perhaps difficult for those who take the technician route. I believe that they generally make the better engineer! My route was that of the former, but I have retained a love of practical things and using my hands to explore, dismantling things to find out how they work, and to create new things using that knowledge.

 

[Tidy Max]

Re: inspection and testing

I did an asbestos awareness course a few years back and the course leader spent 20 minutes explaining how fantastic asbestos was at being flame retardant then proceeded to tell us if we were to work around it to wear a tyvex suit then once finished take it outside and burn it.....