Qualified supervisor

[Pete999]

Firstli will say I have nil experience of the QS, been scanning through the Selects Committee report on Part P that Dillb passed on to me ealier today. One of the things that caught my attention was the scope of the QS's duties, it would seen from what was said during the discussion was that the QS has overall responsibility of the electrical certification of work carried out by the install teams of larger Electrical Companies. What happens with a one man band, how do they manage?
The discussion turned to qualifications, apparently the guys doing the actual work, installing etc, need not be Electricians, or hold any qualifications, they only need to be Competent, the final sy on whether an insallation is the responsibility of the QS.
This may be old hat to most of you Guys and Gals, but how on Earth can the poor QS keep tabs on how the installation has been carried out? Has this changed recently? Is this why The NICEIC in all it's wisdom has now decided to create a new position within their ranks, of someone asessing the suitability of the Electicians doing the work? I think it was Gavin who posted the report in one of his posts, have I got it wrong, grateful for your thoughts.

 

[loplug]

Seems to me that every one that is taking any part in the verification of an install needs to be formally qualified for the part that they are doing. but if there are people about that are prepared to sit in a tea room and make up test results how can that be stopped?

 

[Strima]

I'm QS for a telecoms company that works nationally. We vary between 5 and 25 sparks either PAYE or day rate contractors. All as a minimum must hold C&G 2392 and 17th etc and have practical experience, none are dragged off the street and given a screwdriver.

I have to be very proactive to keep on top of things. I know most of the lads well and I know their work standards, some I have to 'encourage' a little more than others. As we work nationally I spend a lot of time travelling between sites to carry out audits and check up on the kids. I try to see each one at least once a month.

Any new lads we have starting with us are subject to a 100% audit check until I'm happy with their work. Also part of the interview process involves some basic skills checks such as termination of SWA, basic testing procedures and safe isolation.

Luckily most of our work is repetitive such as commando socket installations so the design rarely changes and most sites are switch rooms with a similar built and layout, this has saved me a lot of headaches. We also know the sites well so rarely get any surprises. The maintenance for these sites is done by another company but we get on well with their lads and there's always good communication between us so if I need something checking I can get someone to get me a few photos if I'm desperate.

As for signing off paperwork, I have to rely on the lads to carry out the correct testing and that the build is as per the design. So far I've had very few problems in the last six years.

I have no problems telling someone their work is not up to standard.

I think the biggest problem with the QS role is people aren't proactive enough and just sign off certs carte blanche without keeping tabs on the sparks doing the work. And although a cert has a QS review the companies must have processes in place to ensure the site work is up to standard, not just have a shiny cert for each job.

Any who, beer time...

 

[Leesparkykent]

what I also used to find is that many sparks aren't massively clued up when it comes to testing, even if they have their 2391 or equivilant. Many can't actually interpret test results and you could usually sniff out bull ---- Certs.

 

[loplug]

many sparks aren't massively clued up when it comes to testing.

and when almost every job undertaken requires some sort of test how can that be ?

 

[Leesparkykent]

and when almost every job undertaken requires some sort of test how can that be ?

It means what it says, I'll try and simplify it . I've come across many sparks throughout the years who can test and write out a test sheet but aren't actually massively clued up onit.

 

[SparkySy]

I would have to agree with that @Leesparkykent. I was a QS for a company a few years ago with 16 lads, 8 of them were 2391 qualified or higher and only 3 of them could understand testing a ring final circuit and what the test was actually telling them!
The problem is the industry as a whole, it's never going to change! The people at the top are making so much money anyway that they don't care, the people at the bottom don't care either as they are undercutting everyone as they don't have insurance, qualifications, overheads or a clue how to do it properly. Unfortunately this means that all the people in the middle who try and do their best, keep up with qualifications pay into the scams and end up getting raped for the privilege!!

 

[Octopus]

Maybe the schemes and the IET should state the maximum number of sparks a QS should manage .....

 

[Leesparkykent]

Maybe the schemes and the IET should state the maximum number of sparks a QS should manage .....

The NICEIC inspector told us 1 for every 10 sparks, to cover the scope of work we were doing which was mainly s and y plans, spurs for combi boilers and air and ground source heat pumps.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Maybe the schemes and the IET should state the maximum number of sparks a QS should manage .....

Nothing to do with the IET.

 

[elsparko]

both of my previous supervisors were put to shame by me, im insulted to have them inspect my work when its better than anything they could muster

its one of those jobs thats for the bosses rim jobber

 

[Octopus]

Nothing to do with the IET.

To an extent I would disagree with you ......... the schemes that operate these systems are operating the IET's guidelines .............. and some of their members are taking the p$ss

The IET could simply issue guidance on the ratio of competent people to QS's companies can expect to operate with

and as we all know lots of sparking by companies is installed by INcompetent people

I think QS's should only over see qualified staff ......

 

[Toneyz]

What doesn't help is when your M.D. doesn't support you (once he prised open a locked filing cabinet with certs inside with a hammer and made up a book of certs) I had approx 10 electricians to keep an eye on if I came across something that was not right they made it hard /kept info from me as to who had done work (so you couldn't even educate them) refused to get it put right, Told electricians don't tell Ant this job exists I could go on.

 

[HandySparks]

.... the schemes that operate these systems are operating the IET's guidelines ...

Yes, but I see the IET as a technical authority, nothing to do with Part P or how contractors are organised or supervised.

The IET could simply issue guidance on the ratio of competent people to QS's companies can expect to operate with

Not really their role at all. Surely this should be set out by the government in Approved Document P.

I think QS's should only over see qualified staff ......

I'd go further and say that Part P registration should be by individual as well as by company. ie there should be some (limited) level of registration for individual electricians working for a company.

 

[Pete999]

Yes, but I see the IET as a technical authority, nothing to do with Part P or how contractors are organised or supervised.



Not really their role at all. Surely this should be set out by the government in Approved Document P.



I'd go further and say that Part P registration should be by individual as well as by company. ie there should be some (limited) level of registration for individual electricians working for a company.

The way I read the outcome of that report, it is saying that being an Electrician is not a requirement, just as long as you are deemed to be Competent to do the work, which is a Laughable, Ludicrous situation, and the QS will see to it that the work is done correctly, stupid. This is what I think the training Schools have homed in on, how do you quatify competence? Typical of Politicos dabbling in something they know SFA about.

 

[Sparkingmad]

The way I understood it the QS is there to check that the paperwork looks OK, dot the Is and cross the Ts, not to babysit someone who should be competent to carry out and test their own work.

If you look at page 5 of the NICEIC rules and regulations booklet and job roles it clearly defines the roles of Principle Duty Holder, qualifying Manager/Supervisor.
The company I worked for before being made to go self employed used me to get their approved status as I was the only one with all the qualifications to hold that role. Plus I had been a QS for 16years prior and Qualifying Manager for 2.5yrs. When he got his certificate hung up on his office wall he called me into the office to tell me he couldn’t afford to pay me and keep me on the books when he was short of work, so I would either have to get another job or go self employed. He employs self employed electricians and the ones left on the cards are all non electricians. The highest qualified is still only graded as an improver in old money as hasn’t done AM2 or nvq level 3. I asked him twice before leaving office how this would affect his full scope accreditation he said it won’t on both times. Then he said to me you obviously know something I don’t so tell me what I don’t know. I turned and left and told him to read his terms and conditions and pay attention to page 5 and role of QS.
A QS is a full time employee of the company who is available at all times apart from holidays or authorised absence / sickness to monitor the installations being carried by the company. Where young or trainee or non qualified persons are employed it’s the QS responsibility to ensure they are being trained and working safely. It is the responsibility of the QS to ensure all electricians or competent persons are carrying out their duties to the regs. If that means having to carry our site visits and monitoring then it is the Principle Duty Holders responsibility to ensure that the QS has time to carry out his duties.
The QS is responsible for all certification and the correct storing and issuing of certificates.
The QS has more responsibility than any other person in the organisation in my book. If the QS believes that any work being carried out is wrong and is pressured to sign off work then he should refuse to sign it himself and I would say he should be writing a letter to NICEIC to that fact and get them to actually do something constructive and put into good use the extortionate amount of money they get paid each year by their members to help their members.