RCD on socket outlets

[Dazza1976]

Hi all,

i have heard so much difference of opinion on this subject, and im sure it has been discussed many a time on this forum, but can anyone clarify a couple of questions i have on the subject please.

Do all new sockets installed have to be RCD protected, or is it only mandatory if they are likely to be used for powering anything outside or in a special location ?

When carrying out an electrical condition report, if none of the sockets installed have any RCD protection, would you put that down as a C1 code, or would you take into account the fact it was installed before the use of RCDs and was wired according to the regulations at that time and just put it down as a reccomendation to bring it inline with the current regs.
I have heard a few people say that its an instant fail, but im sure you have to give consideration to whn it was installed ?

Many thanks in advance

 

[atm84]

Hi thanks for your reply,

I wouldnt say i have lack of knowledge on the subject as I too would have coded it a C2 or C3, I just wanted to hear your opinions on here, as i recently had the debate with a guy who was Niceic registered and he was adament that if it didnt comply with the current regs you would put it down as a C1 if the sockets had no RCD protection.

I will be honest, im not as knowledgebale as some of you guys on here, but im no Electrical Trainee either and did a full 3years City and Guilds

I appreciate your feedback though

Even still, your knowledge at this point it time is far too basic to be conducting periodic inspection and testing. Such a fundamental gap in your knowledge when it comes to design principles is evidence enough, and if someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing. Going by some of your past posts you've only had your regs book for less than a year!

Do you hold a 2391 or 2394/2395 qualification? I'd steer well clear of EICRs fella, you could end up in a whole world of grief!

I'm sorry but that is such a false statement. "If someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing".

Today, the teach very basic design skills at college and the inspection and testing course is an NVQ level 3. To work as a designer most employers ask for a minimum of HNC/ HND or even degree level.

I currently work as a designer and I can assure you that there is a lot more to learn than what they teach at college.

 

[atm84]

Even still, your knowledge at this point it time is far too basic to be conducting periodic inspection and testing. Such a fundamental gap in your knowledge when it comes to design principles is evidence enough, and if someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing. Going by some of your past posts you've only had your regs book for less than a year!

Do you hold a 2391 or 2394/2395 qualification? I'd steer well clear of EICRs fella, you could end up in a whole world of grief!

Well thanks for your replies everyone.

Constructive criticism I havent got a problem with, but blatantly jumping in and putting people down with wrong assumptions I do.

Andy 78 and D Skelton, I appreciate you are both trusted members on this site and clearly have a wealth of experience and knowledge which i respect you for, but you jumped in and tried to belittle me without obviously even reading my post properly.

Where in the post did I say that I was carrying out an EICR myself or was about to do so ?? I havent and never said i did, as i wouldnt feel fully confident doing one on my own at this stage in time. Although i did a 3 years City and guilds course and have a fairly decent level of experience, i will be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn, and wouldnt put my name to anything like that until im fully experienced and feel confident to do so.

I was asking the questions as I am still learning and trying to better myself and improve my knowledge every day, and as i mentioned i have heard quite a few differences of opinion on the subject and wanted to hear what some of you experienced fellas on here had to say.

If a more experienced guy who is registered with Niciec tells you something different to what you believed, you are going to ask questions about it arent you ?

At the end of the day I am only trying to better myself, and make sure that Im doing things the correct way, as I too would like to be fully competent and be doing my own EICRs one day.

D Skelton why did you think it was necessary to read my past posts and then comment I have only had my reg books for a year ?? I had the old Brown 16th edition books for a good 7 years before that, and was also borrowing my friends 17th edition ones before i bought my own. You are implying that i only started reading the regs a year ago ?!

I love this site, as it has been an extremely valuable tool for gaining extra knowledge, I just dont like the way some people on here are always putting down others accusing them of being incompetent e.t.c when all they are trying to do is get advice and better their understanding of a very complexed trade.

You guys with the wealth of experience and knowledge should maybe think back to the days when you knew far less and were greatful to get any help and advice from others, instead of shooting people down and trying to make them look stupid.

Good on you son, well put.

 

[D Skelton]

I'm sorry but that is such a false statement. "If someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing".

Today, the teach very basic design skills at college and the inspection and testing course is an NVQ level 3. To work as a designer most employers ask for a minimum of HNC/ HND or even degree level.

I currently work as a designer and I can assure you that there is a lot more to learn than what they teach at college.

Ok so no design knowledge needed to inspect and test no?

Tell me, without design knowledge how are you going to assess the suitability of cables for current carrying capacity, confirm the suitability of earthing and bonding conductor sizes, assess whether or not overcurrent protective devices are correctly selected and rated, assess whether or not wiring methods are suitable, assess the adequacy of cpcs, assess whether or not the wiring systems are appropriate for the type and nature of the installation etc??? The list goes on...

I also carry out design work so am fully aware of what's involved with it. I also carry out inspection and testing and can categorically say that without a more advanced degree of design knowledge compared to that of someone who has just left college, there is no way a person would be competent to inspect and test. I'd say 50% of the content of the inspection and testing courses are design based or at least have a certain level of design bias.

Ultimately, a monkey could carry out an R1+R2 test or a figure of eight ring final circuit test. It takes much more than an ability to operate a Megger in order to be a competent inspector and tester.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

No D Skelton your post was not belittling was it ? Just a "word of caution" ? You are one of the worst "belitterers" on the site with plenty proof and history of this. WHY do you do it ? Sorry but people like you do frustrate me knowledgeable or not.

He can come across a little like that at times Clematis (sorry Mr DS :blush5, but I do not believe it is to belittle someone but rather to teach, also it is generally before someone has proved themselves a little and I have to admit he is 'nearly' always right and I have learnt a great deal from him.

Well done for staying polite and stick with it, this is a great site and you'll learn a great deal.

 

[D Skelton]

I have to admit he is 'nearly' always right

'Nearly'?!?!?

You cheeky sod!

 

[telectrix]

wel. you did cock it up at el alamein.

 

[atm84]

I'm sorry but that is such a false statement. "If someone doesn't know how to design, then they shouldn't be inspecting and testing".

Today, the teach very basic design skills at college and the inspection and testing course is an NVQ level 3. To work as a designer most employers ask for a minimum of HNC/ HND or even degree level.

I currently work as a designer and I can assure you that there is a lot more to learn than what they teach at college.

Ok so no design knowledge needed to inspect and test no?

Tell me, without design knowledge how are you going to assess the suitability of cables for current carrying capacity, confirm the suitability of earthing and bonding conductor sizes, assess whether or not overcurrent protective devices are correctly selected and rated, assess whether or not wiring methods are suitable, assess the adequacy of cpcs, assess whether or not the wiring systems are appropriate for the type and nature of the installation etc??? The list goes on...

I also carry out design work so am fully aware of what's involved with it. I also carry out inspection and testing and can categorically say that without a more advanced degree of design knowledge compared to that of someone who has just left college, there is no way a person would be competent to inspect and test. I'd say 50% of the content of the inspection and testing courses are design based or at least have a certain level of design bias.

Ultimately, a monkey could carry out an R1+R2 test or a figure of eight ring final circuit test. It takes much more than an ability to operate a Megger in order to be a competent inspector and tester.

What you describe above isn't designing, its basically knowing what the 'rules of thumb' are.

Someone coming out of college after a 4 year apprenticeship can't call them self a designer but if they continue and do the 2394 and 2395 they can call them self a tester.

 

[D Skelton]

What you describe above isn't designing, its basically knowing what the 'rules of thumb' are.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If all an inspector is working to are 'rules of thumb' then in my mind he is not doing his job properly.

Someone coming out of college after a 4 year apprenticeship can't call them self a designer but if they continue and do the 2394 and 2395 they can call them self a tester.

And as I said, the test and inspect courses do have a large amount of design tuition within. I stand by what I say. If you can't design, you shouldn't be inspecting and testing.

 

[Andy78]

Well thanks for your replies everyone.

Constructive criticism I havent got a problem with, but blatantly jumping in and putting people down with wrong assumptions I do.

Andy 78 and D Skelton, I appreciate you are both trusted members on this site and clearly have a wealth of experience and knowledge which i respect you for, but you jumped in and tried to belittle me without obviously even reading my post properly.

Where in the post did I say that I was carrying out an EICR myself or was about to do so ?? I havent and never said i did, as i wouldnt feel fully confident doing one on my own at this stage in time. Although i did a 3 years City and guilds course and have a fairly decent level of experience, i will be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn, and wouldnt put my name to anything like that until im fully experienced and feel confident to do so.

I was asking the questions as I am still learning and trying to better myself and improve my knowledge every day, and as i mentioned i have heard quite a few differences of opinion on the subject and wanted to hear what some of you experienced fellas on here had to say.

If a more experienced guy who is registered with Niciec tells you something different to what you believed, you are going to ask questions about it arent you ?

At the end of the day I am only trying to better myself, and make sure that Im doing things the correct way, as I too would like to be fully competent and be doing my own EICRs one day.

D Skelton why did you think it was necessary to read my past posts and then comment I have only had my reg books for a year ?? I had the old Brown 16th edition books for a good 7 years before that, and was also borrowing my friends 17th edition ones before i bought my own. You are implying that i only started reading the regs a year ago ?!

I love this site, as it has been an extremely valuable tool for gaining extra knowledge, I just dont like the way some people on here are always putting down others accusing them of being incompetent e.t.c when all they are trying to do is get advice and better their understanding of a very complexed trade.

You guys with the wealth of experience and knowledge should maybe think back to the days when you knew far less and were greatful to get any help and advice from others, instead of shooting people down and trying to make them look stupid.

First of all, sorry for any offence caused. My post was not meant to be belittling and I'm sorry you took it that way.

You are correct, your original post did not say you were carrying out an EICR. Neither did it say you were trying to glean information to make sense of an EICR someone else had carried out. I made an assumption as to the intention of the post therefore.
I am still however incredibly surprised that someone who has done a 3 year city and guilds course and has plenty of experience has no knowledge of the RCD requirements for sockets in the current regs, a publication that has been current for the last 6 years.
This may have aided my assumption and the reason I gave you short shrift.

In any case, my posts are just my opinion and you can take them or leave them as you please.

 

[atm84]

What you describe above isn't designing, its basically knowing what the 'rules of thumb' are.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If all an inspector is working to are 'rules of thumb' then in my mind he is not doing his job properly.

Someone coming out of college after a 4 year apprenticeship can't call them self a designer but if they continue and do the 2394 and 2395 they can call them self a tester.

And as I said, the test and inspect courses do have a large amount of design tuition within. I stand by what I say. If you can't design, you shouldn't be inspecting and testing.

I think you need to have an UNDERSTANDING of design but by saying that if you can't design, you shouldn't be inspecting and testing is over the top.

Like I said before most employers ask for a minimum of HND for designers, not a 4 year apprenticeship and the 2395.

 

[D Skelton]

I think you need to have an UNDERSTANDING of design but by saying that if you can't design, you shouldn't be inspecting and testing is over the top.

Like I said before most employers ask for a minimum of HND for designers, not a 4 year apprenticeship and the 2395.

Or the 2396.

Yes, an understanding would be a start, but this is what I'm getting at. There is far far more to inspection and testing than just measuring results with a multifunction tester. If this were the case then the 2394 and 95 could be completed within a matter of hours.

The majority of knowledge needed by a profesisonal inspector and tester is regs knowledge and fundamental design knowledge. Bearing in mind that a lot of fundamental design knowledge is regs based too.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I think to summarise this discussion, in my opinion, it's having the ability (from knowledge/experience) to interpret any measurements, observations etc made on an inspection that is important.

 

[atm84]

I think to summarise this discussion, in my opinion, it's having the ability (from knowledge/experience) to interpret any measurements, observations etc made on an inspection that is important.

Yes totally agree with that.

 

[clematis432]

The thread is now very intuitive, way it should have started. Attitude is all important some have it some don,t.

 

[telectrix]

all depends on the attitude. went into a pub with my rottweiler once and there was a bloke at the bar had put his hat on the next barstool. the dog grabbed and gave it a good ragging. the bloke said to me " Oi, you dog's just chewed up my hat"

" So what" i said.

he said " I don't like your attitude"

i said " it's not my attitude, it's your 'at he chewed"