Regulations for installing 5 new double sockets

[ben5010]

Hi Ben welcome to the forum.

It is impossible to 2nd guess what has happened here with regards to your job. Can I ask are these 5 extra sockets for general use or do you have a specific job for them.

To be honest if they are for general use I would have advised that you rather than spurring off of sockets, but to try and incorporate them in an already existing ring circuit, if that is what you have.

If you had an intended use for them and it was a low load situation then I may have advised that you spur off of one of your ring sockets in a fused unit and run the 5 sockets of a 13amp fuse.

The above 2 suggestions are open to loads of interpretations to be honest

Is there an existing Ring circuit
Is it capable of adding 5 extra sockets
Would trying to extend it cause civil problems, ie decorating etc
Would it be more cost effective to run a new circuit be it ring or radial

The list could go on and on

These sockets were to be used in a kitchen, the place was being renovated at the time so it was easy to access anything if they had asked me questions about the ring etc as the floorboards were up, it just seems weird to me that he managed to tell me if needs a ring without any sort of testing, surely that's something I could of done over the phone for a correct quote?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Ahhhhhhhh there is some light now.

Often because of the loads that can be utilized in a kitchen, kettles, washing machines dishwashers etc it is quite a modern practice to have a dedicated ring for the kitchen alone.

So I would say that he is offering you perhaps sound advice

 

[telectrix]

nevertheless, any sparks worthy of the name should not quote for such a job over the phone. as malcolm says, loading in a kitchen is quite heavy, so he should have surveyed the job before quoting. i know i would.

 

[lauriehurman]

Hi Ben

The regs do not restrict the number of sockets on a ring, what they restrict is the floor area that the ring can serve. If your 5 new sockets are in the same room as the original 2 then the floor area has not changed. The thinking is that you are not going to put 5 new 3KW heaters in the same floor area so the current draw will still be safe.

Laurie
P.S. sorry didn't read the bit about it being a kitchen, that does change things.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Laurie are you mixing up the OSG with the regs, there is no floor area stipulation in the actually regulations mate

Even in Appendix 15, which is informative and not normative, it gives a maximum suggested area of 100 sq mt, but even that is a maximum suggestion and providing you take into account volt drop can be bigger

Minimum area, there isn't one

 

[urbangee]

I think you mean one spur per ring, not socket

 

[malcolmsanford]

I think you mean one spur per ring, not socket

:banghead::banghead:

 

[ben5010]

Hi Ben

The regs do not restrict the number of sockets on a ring, what they restrict is the floor area that the ring can serve. If your 5 new sockets are in the same room as the original 2 then the floor area has not changed. The thinking is that you are not going to put 5 new 3KW heaters in the same floor area so the current draw will still be safe.

Laurie
P.S. sorry didn't read the bit about it being a kitchen, that does change things.

So would they of known that a new ring is necessary to install new sockets into the kitchen prior to coming round?

 

[telectrix]

they would not have known to be sure, but as it's a kitchen, the possibility of a new ring, and the condition of the existing installation circuit should have been considered. e.g. earthing and bonding may have been inadequate or non-existant, existing wiring in kitchen could be suspect. there are so many variables on a job of this nature that only a muppet would give a quote without seeing the job first.

 

[SafetyFirst]

I did ask earlier what 'room' do you want this install in?.........

New ring all the way as any house should have with loads etc.

Ben what type of fuse board do you have? Is it old? rewireble fuses or trip switch MCB's? Or if your lucky RCD covered?

New circuits generally since the 17th edition came in, ought to have RCD protection.


Clearly the guys you got in weren't very co-operative to say the least, mind many firms have a quote fee so even if they assessed the work on site rather than on the phone they sound the type who would charge without them picking up a tool. Always try and find respected people from friends/family if poss without a quoting charge.


Hope you get sorted soon.

 

[ben5010]

I did ask earlier what 'room' do you want this install in?.........

New ring all the way as any house should have with loads etc.

Ben what type of fuse board do you have? Is it old? rewireble fuses or trip switch MCB's? Or if your lucky RCD covered?

New circuits generally since the 17th edition came in, ought to have RCD protection.


Clearly the guys you got in weren't very co-operative to say the least, mind many firms have a quote fee so even if they assessed the work on site rather than on the phone they sound the type who would charge without them picking up a tool. Always try and find respected people from friends/family if poss without a quoting charge.


Hope you get sorted soon.

Hi, the fuse board is an old metal trip type fuse board, do you think they should of asked me these questions prior to the appointment? I guess they don't ask the question because if they actually quote the actual cost its going to be it will scare customers off, so it seems they under quoted just to get the job

 

[SafetyFirst]

Thing is Ben we as electricians like plumbers/heating engineers have gas safe regulations to adhere too we have whats called wiring regulations. They are kind of an electricians bible of rules and regulations of today and every decade or so an update usually occurs.

We have now been on the 17th edition of these regulations since 2008 and any NEW installation must conform to this.

Therefore the new ring should incorporate protection not just by a standard fuse but have RCD protection.

Price wise in the short term an easy solution would be to have that circuit protected by a RCCB (Residual Current Circuit Breaker) only if that breaker can be incorperated into your existing fuseboard otherwise another setup is necessary.

How much longer do you intend to use the house? How old is the wiring? How much money do you have to spend?

If you can afford a new 17th edition fuseboard my advice would be to get one while a new circuit like this is needed.

As from my own experience though, make sure an electrician tests all circuits proir to installing a new fuse board as your 'old' wiring may have faults such as borrowed neutrals that would need rewiring for it to work safely with RCD protection.

Basically you could open a can of worms depending how good your wiring is.

Sorry if this is info overload, as i say the cheapest and easiest option SHORT TERM is a new ring protected by RCCB if poss!

 

[ben5010]

Thing is Ben we as electricians like plumbers/heating engineers have gas safe regulations to adhere too we have whats called wiring regulations. They are kind of an electricians bible of rules and regulations of today and every decade or so an update usually occurs.

We have now been on the 17th edition of these regulations since 2008 and any NEW installation must conform to this.

Therefore the new ring should incorporate protection not just by a standard fuse but have RCD protection.

Price wise in the short term an easy solution would be to have that circuit protected by a RCCB (Residual Current Circuit Breaker) only if that breaker can be incorperated into your existing fuseboard otherwise another setup is necessary.

How much longer do you intend to use the house? How old is the wiring? How much money do you have to spend?

If you can afford a new 17th edition fuseboard my advice would be to get one while a new circuit like this is needed.

As from my own experience though, make sure an electrician tests all circuits proir to installing a new fuse board as your 'old' wiring may have faults such as borrowed neutrals that would need rewiring for it to work safely with RCD protection.

Basically you could open a can of worms depending how good your wiring is.

Sorry if this is info overload, as i say the cheapest and easiest option SHORT TERM is a new ring protected by RCCB if poss!

So do the building regulations state that if a qualified electrician is to install a 5 new sockets they have to put a minimum of a new ring in protected by RCCB?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Ben not sure how long we can bat this about mate. We have all told you the following

a) There is nothing in the regs that tells us the amount of sockets you can have on a Ring, you could have 1 if you so wanted, though totally ridiculous.

b) There is nothing also in any regulations being electrical/building or whatever that say 5 sockets must be on a ring. So if you don't want a new ring final done then don't be talked into

c) As I said in a previous post a lot of modern designs have the kitchen on a separate ring final, so a lot of the time a house will have 3 upstairs, downstairs and kitchen, we have to give these guys the benefit and say that when you told them you want 5 extra sockets in the kitchen they ADVISED you that perhaps a new ring would be best.

d) finally if you do feel they are trying to con you, and to be honest, they may have advised what to do over the phone, but I would bet they will have to come out and confirm this, then get another electrician in and see what they say

 

[HandySparks]

So do the building regulations state that if a qualified electrician is to install a 5 new sockets they have to put a minimum of a new ring in protected by RCCB?

Not in so many words. The wiring regs (BS7671) runs to over 400 pages. However, in most domestic installations, new cables in the wall and new sockets will both require RCD protection. Often the best way to achieve this is to add an RCD to the whole of the existing circuit. Even better may be to install a new consumer unit with RCD protection to all the circuits.

As far as the requirement for a new ring is concerned, it depends on what loads may be connected to the existing ring and what loads are proposed for the new sockets. Its possible to run a whole house on one socket ring circuit. On the other hand, you wouldn't want to find the the circuit breaker or fuse kept tripping due to overloading of the circuit.

Just out of interest, how much had they quoted for the job and how many quotes did you get?