Rewire after failed EICR. Have we been scammed?

[Peggyhenry89]

I think we’re now getting into realms of legality, and although we can give advice, you may need the services of an actual lawyer.

You can approach their CPS, Napit and ask them to comment, and trading standards… But I don’t see what they could do.
You could also check the company in question is actually a member of Napit, and not just using their name.

For a job costing £8k, a lot of people would have gone for 2 or 3 quotes, and this consultation with other companies may have brought up the inaccuracies on the EICR…. That might not have happened if there was a short time frame before getting the tenant in.

Hi littlespark

I have approaced Citizens Advice and I intend to contact either the letting agency or inspector to progress further.

My parents are naive when it comes to this and I am only just dipping my toes in thus industry so at the time none of us new what to look for on a EICR. We should've gone for more quotes but my parents were rushed by the letting agent and told they only had 30 days to get the EICR and any remedial work completed.

Thanks for your advice

Andrew

 

[pc1966]

Do you have any photos or records, etc, from the original time?

If it is a TT installation without RCD protection then it is most certainly not going to be satisfactory.

The only way (assuming it was measured correctly) that I can see getting 0.25 ohms Zs would be via service pipes, and you should never relay on those as a means of earthing (in the regs, number not to hand). If those pipes are changed to plastic (as most plumbing and new gas mains are now) you would be on to the earth electrode and not able to disconnect on any over-current protection.

I fully agree that as an EICR it is incomplete and lacking in information, and if my understanding of its original situation is right the lack of RCD protection is a C2. Also if there are any sockets that are likely to be used for outside stuff (e.g. extension lead for gardening or hoovering a car, etc) that is also C2 for lack of RCD.

The NAIPT guidance is more restrictive as C2 for most other lack of RCD situations, but many folks here go with the Best Practice guide #4 and they would be saying C2 for failure to disconnect on a TT rod's Ra (not measured it seems?) as well as sockets on the ground-floor that might be used outside (also for bathroom without full supplementary bonding, etc)

As already stated, a CU change would be enough for those aspects, but without knowing the condition of the cables and other aspects such as past poor work or cracked/damaged accessories it is hard to say if a rewire was justified or not.

 

[Peggyhenry89]

Do you have any photos or records, etc, from the original time?

If it is a TT installation without RCD protection then it is most certainly not going to be satisfactory.

The only way (assuming it was measured correctly) that I can see getting 0.25 ohms Zs would be via service pipes, and you should never relay on those as a means of earthing (in the regs, number not to hand). If those pipes are changed to plastic (as most plumbing and new gas mains are now) you would be on to the earth electrode and not able to disconnect on any over-current protection.

I fully agree that as an EICR it is incomplete and lacking in information, and if my understanding of its original situation is right the lack of RCD protection is a C2. Also if there are any sockets that are likely to be used for outside stuff (e.g. extension lead for gardening or hoovering a car, etc) that is also C2 for lack of RCD.

The NAIPT guidance is more restrictive as C2 for most other lack of RCD situations, but many folks here go with the Best Practice guide #4 and they would be saying C2 for failure to disconnect on a TT rod's Ra (not measured it seems?) as well as sockets on the ground-floor that might be used outside (also for bathroom without full supplementary bonding, etc)

As already stated, a CU change would be enough for those aspects, but without knowing the condition of the cables and other aspects such as past poor work or cracked/damaged accessories it is hard to say if a rewire was justified or not.

Hi PC1966

The schedule of test results state that there are 30mA RCDs fitted to each circuit. Also, I have just checked the EIC from after the rewire done by another company and it states that the Ze is now 24.4 ohms, this also questions the validity of the original Ze meausure of 0.35ohms, unless the new installer have removed a lot of earthing conductors.

Thanks

 

[pc1966]

The schedule of test results state that there are 30mA RCDs fitted to each circuit. Also, I have just checked the EIC

Yes, test results say there is in one column but no test times, etc, for that, and the lack of RCD aspect is there as a C3 point.

Do you have a photo showing an RCD was actually present?

My suspicion is there was none but the form was auto-filled to have that column completed. Do you know when that installation was dated from?

from after the rewire done by another company and it states that the Ze is now 24.4 ohms, this also questions the validity of the original Ze measure of 0.35ohms, unless the new installer have removed a lot of earthing conductors.

Ze would be the "means of earthing" alone so could be 24 ohms as quite reasonable for a rod or two.

Zs is the in-use impedance with any bonding, etc, present. Are there measure Zs figures for individual circuits? They would show if bonding was taking the figure down to < 1 ohm, etc.

It is not uncommon for pipe work to be bonded in other nearby properties to a TN-C-S or TN-S system and so they can well drop the impedance down that way, but it is not reliable as anyone anywhere on the system can make a repair and not maintain electrical continuity quite legitimately.

 

[pc1966]

Just to add that when you are characterising a system there are two distinct aspects to measure:

• The Ze as the official "means of earthing". This is the value you ought to depend on for circuit desing and generally it would dictate if fault clearing on OCPD is possible (usual case on TN supplies) or if you are dependant on an RCD (usual case for TT).
• The Zs as the in-use impedance. That allows a measurement of both the PFC (fault to earth current) and the PSCC (L-N fault) so you know the highest current that any OCPD has to interrupt.

In most cases your standard CU MCB/RCBO on a domestic supply has no problems in interrupting the maximum current, but older rewirable fuses can have breaking limits as low as 1kA which can be exceeded fairly easily. in industrial situations toy might well find supplies that can exceed the usual 6-15kA for an MCB!

Even on domestic if you have a RCD it typically can only interrupt around 1.5kA so you must have some means to limit the current to within that range. Typically if you have a MCB in series then its "instant" magnetic trip is faster than a RCD so limits the fault current, but on a fuse or similar you might need to depend on a delay-RCD and to check that your fuse blowing time at that 1.5kA is less than the RCD's delay period so it is not interrupting the full current.

 

[Peggyhenry89]

Yes, test results say there is in one column but no test times, etc, for that, and the lack of RCD aspect is there as a C3 point.

Do you have a photo showing an RCD was actually present?

My suspicion is there was none but the form was auto-filled to have that column completed. Do you know when that installation was dated from?

Ze would be the "means of earthing" alone so could be 24 ohms as quite reasonable for a rod or two.

Zs is the in-use impedance with any bonding, etc, present. Are there measure Zs figures for individual circuits? They would show if bonding was taking the figure down to < 1 ohm, etc.

It is not uncommon for pipe work to be bonded in other nearby properties to a TN-C-S or TN-S system and so they can well drop the impedance down that way, but it is not reliable as anyone anywhere on the system can make a repair and not maintain electrical continuity quite legitimately.

Sorry I don't know exactly when it was first installed but I could have been 80s perhaps and I unfortunately do not have any pics of the original install.

Either way. The lack of RCDs is not down as a C2 and even if it was the statement saying that the complete rewire of both flat and shop is misleading.

Thanks for your advice. I'm still pretty new to this but if my parents have been scammed I'd like to pursue it. Although I will admit that we were all a but naive at the time and should've questioned it but we put our trust in the letting agent and the inspector

 

[Peggyhenry89]

Just to add that when you are characterising a system there are two distinct aspects to measure:

• The Ze as the official "means of earthing". This is the value you ought to depend on for circuit desing and generally it would dictate if fault clearing on OCPD is possible (usual case on TN supplies) or if you are dependant on an RCD (usual case for TT).
• The Zs as the in-use impedance. That allows a measurement of both the PFC (fault to earth current) and the PSCC (L-N fault) so you know the highest current that any OCPD has to interrupt.

In most cases your standard CU MCB/RCBO on a domestic supply has no problems in interrupting the maximum current, but older rewirable fuses can have breaking limits as low as 1kA which can be exceeded fairly easily. in industrial situations toy might well find supplies that can exceed the usual 6-15kA for an MCB!

Even on domestic if you have a RCD it typically can only interrupt around 1.5kA so you must have some means to limit the current to within that range. Typically if you have a MCB in series then its "instant" magnetic trip is faster than a RCD so limits the fault current, but on a fuse or similar you might need to depend on a delay-RCD and to check that your fuse blowing time at that 1.5kA is less than the RCD's delay period so it is not interrupting the full current.

Can I ask your professional opinion. If you were given the EICR we received would you say from what was on the report that the only remedy would be a full rewire?

 

[brianmoooore]

This thread, like many others, is drifting off course, and is becoming a discussion of whether some C3s should have been C2, etc.
The fact is that there were NO C1 or C2 classifications on this EICR, so it should not have been 'unsatisfactory', or require ANY work to make it so.

 

[Peggyhenry89]

This thread, like many others, is drifting off course, and is becoming a discussion of whether some C3s should have been C2, etc.
The fact is that there were NO C1 or C2 classifications on this EICR, so it should not have been 'unsatisfactory', or require ANY work to make it so.

Thank you brianmooore.

May I also ask your professional opinion. If you were given the EICR we received would you say there has been any issues highlighted that would mean that the only remedy was to fully rewire both shop and flat?

 

[pc1966]

Can I ask your professional opinion. If you were given the EICR we received would you say from what was on the report that the only remedy would be a full rewire?

I could not say either way.

It is a poor EICR as I think we all agree, but without more information from the time it is hard to judge.

My own suspicion is it lacked RCDs protection and that ought to have been down as C2, based on the age and various aspects of the EICR (TT earthing, lack of measurements, C3 on schedule), but sadly the best option would have been a 2nd opinion at the time (or some photos, etc, showing the installation).

 

[littlespark]

Ah… I thought those that did the EICR, also did the rewire… now realise it was another firm.

Was the rewiring company given the EICR, or were they just told “can you rewire this for us?”

They would just be doing what they were asked to do.
There may have been questions if someone said there was an unsatisfactory EICR, but the stuff they were pulling out was still ok.

Some customers do ask for work that doesn’t technically need done

Your issue is a misleading EICR, but now, you can’t really get a second opinion if it’s all been “corrected”

 

[Peggyhenry89]

Ah… I thought those that did the EICR, also did the rewire… now realise it was another firm.

Was the rewiring company given the EICR, or were they just told “can you rewire this for us?”

They would just be doing what they were asked to do.
There may have been questions if someone said there was an unsatisfactory EICR, but the stuff they were pulling out was still ok.

Some customers do ask for work that doesn’t technically need done

Your issue is a misleading EICR, but now, you can’t really get a second opinion if it’s all been “corrected”

Sorry if I was unclear. Yes I have no issue with the team doing the rewire. As you say they were instructed to do the work. They did a shoddy job but that is another problem!

My problem is the misleading EICR that was used to convince my parents that the only remedy to their "dangerous" installation was a full rewire when we have all seen that the observations were all C3 and FI.

I think our complaint lies with our letting agent as we pay them to manage our property and our best interests. I was just after a professional opinion on the state of the original EICR and the recommendation of a full rewire.

Brianmooore hit the nail on the head I think. There were zero C1 and C2 therefore the system should not have been deemed unsatisfactory. And even if the missing RCD was down as a C2 it didn't warrant a full rewire. Plus other missing tests which would determine the condition of the wiring

 

[brianmoooore]

Based on that report, I suspect that there are issues with the earthing arrangements that haven't been properly flagged up by the EICR, but there is nothing in that report to suggest that a rewire is required. This is largely because there is next to nothing in the report.

 

[pc1966]

As an aside, there was a discussion elsewhere about if you could have "unsatisfactory" EICR without C2 or worse and the opinions were kind of split. Officially you must have something that is unsatisfactory and can be clearly identified as so on the EICR, but there was also the discussion about an installation where you had so many C3 issues, each of which was not too big on its own, but in total it that led to the belief the whole installation was not acceptably safe.

Sadly none of this helps the OP without any other evidence like photos or similar from the time!

The simple answer is the EICR ought not to have been "unsatisfactory" without C2/C1 (or FI but that is another discussion)

But looking at it my own view is the balance of probabilities says no RCD and on TT & ground floor sockets that should have been a C2. That aspect would only need a CU change, not a rewire.

But if the cable condition, state of accessories, and/or length at the old CU location to fit in to a new one was unsatisfactory then a rewire might be merited. Again, the EICR is poor in that no comments on cable condition or IR values were present, so while it is not unreasonable to think a rewire might have been needed, we don't have evidence one way or another.

 

[Peggyhenry89]

As an aside, there was a discussion elsewhere about if you could have "unsatisfactory" EICR without C2 or worse and the opinions were kind of split. Officially you must have something that is unsatisfactory and can be clearly identified as so on the EICR, but there was also the discussion about an installation where you had so many C3 issues, each of which was not too big on its own, but in total it that led to the belief the whole installation was not acceptably safe.

Sadly none of this helps the OP without any other evidence like photos or similar from the time!

The simple answer is the EICR ought not to have been "unsatisfactory" without C2/C1 (or FI but that is another discussion)

But looking at it my own view is the balance of probabilities says no RCD and on TT & ground floor sockets that should have been a C2. That aspect would only need a CU change, not a rewire.

But if the cable condition, state of accessories, and/or length at the old CU location to fit in to a new one was unsatisfactory then a rewire might be merited. Again, the EICR is poor in that no comments on cable condition or IR values were present, so while it is not unreasonable to think a rewire might have been needed, we don't have evidence one way or another.

Thanks pc1966 I've liked this discussion and learnt a lot.

If we decide to pursue it I'll update this thread