RING GUIDE, per socket wire thickness/AMPAGE?

[srands]

HI

On socket wire reels (Twin & Earth, Prysmian or any make really), the thickness determines, the associated AMPAGE, hence:
1.0mm = 15A
1.5mm = 20A
2.5mm = 27A
4.0mm = 36A
6.0mm = 46A
10.0mm = 63A
16.0mm = 85A

HOWEVER, what about the approximate RINGED VALUE of each of the SOCKET WIRE TYPES (Twin & Earth)?

In my 17th Edition IEE Guide, only the most common SKT WIRE thickness RINGED, is mentioned:
1.5mm RINGED = 20A x 1.6 = 32A
2.5mm RINGED = 27A x 1.2 = 32A

What about the approximate RINGED AMPAGES of:
1mm, 4mm, 6mm, 10mm, 16mm?

Does anybody have a reliable RING GUIDE? Or anybody have any good approximate figures, from socket wire reels, electrical websites, reference guides, etc?

Cheers

Stephan

 

[telectrix]

problem with MICC cable as used for a ring final circuit, is the copper sheath. mr. plumber will come along and try and tap in a radiator.

 

[Paul.M]

MarkieSparkie, what a brilliant answer.

 

[srands]

OK, how condescending! It is a simple question, that has a simple answer :
A very approximate RING AMPAGE per different skt wire diameter!

OBVIOUSLY IEE AND SKT WIRE MANUFACTURERS ARE VAGUE ABOUT SPECIFYING RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES, AS THESE ARE NOT ABSOLUTE CERTAINITIES AS THERE ARE MANY VARIBLES (See detailed explanation below), HENCE RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES ARE JUST AN APPROXIMATE GUIDE. Let me put this another way.

SOCKET WIRE MANUFACTURERS make SKT WIRE of different diameters, the AMPAGE specified, does include a big safety margin.
For example 2.5mm skt wire ampage is rated to 27A.
To make a comparison, a 30A fuse wire (Used on rewireable fuses), is approximately ½ the diameter of 2.5mm skt wire. Hence the real ampage load of 2.5mm skt wire is much greater then 27A, how big a safety margin skt wire manufacturers have worked into their stated ampages is anybodies guess, and I’m not going test skt wire until it melts to discover what is the absolute maximum of skt wire before it melts. But of course the stated AMPAGE is intended for CONTINOUS use (Or not) for a great many years, that is the life of buildings (Houses, businesses, factories, sky scrapers, etc), as buildings do NOT routinely need skt wire replacing, obviously!

Hence socket wire manufacturers do not specify RING AMPAGE per SKT WIRE diameter on their skt wire reels that I’ve ever bought, instead the approx specifying of RINGED skt wire is left to BRITISH STANDARDS. But IEE only stipulates the most commonly used skt wire, 1.5mm, 2.5mm & 4mm for RING circuit AMPAGE values (IEE 17th Edition, Pg44).

Obviously stated RING AMPAGE of skt wire can’t be less then stated AMPAGE of skt wire, and it is less then double. An incorrect assumption, is that ringing doubles ampage, it does not. For example, even if a RING circuit was an even loop, and the only LOAD was at the RING loop end, the flow of electrons (anions - and cations +) will NOT necessarily be drawn by the LOAD from SUPPLY in even amounts from each length of skt wire from the fusebox.
Hence RINGing is less then double: 1.5mm 20A x 1.6 = 32A (As stipulated by IEE 17th Edition), so this is 1.6 times the stated AMPAGE of the skt wire (32A/20A=1.6).
And since skt wire length depends on room size and next nearest skt/fixture, and watts used and the length of time a light/appliance is used for, varies widely, hence watts load drawn from each skt in a RING is likely to be different.
And to make my point more obvious in a RING circuit, if a skt wire is near to the fusebox, then the load will be drawn to nearest supply, hence the electrons will NOT flow evenly through both lengths of skt wire, INSTEAD the load draws electrons from the skt wire length nearest to the fusebox, hence since RINGING circuits AMPAGE maximum load depends on the nearest direction of supply for electrons to follow, hence quoted RING AMPAGE figures are/would be a very approximate guide. And since consumed watts will NOT necessarily be known hence IEE and other REFERENCE GUIDES also stipulate RING maximums in SQUARE METRE lengths, hence when consumed watts not known RINGED CIRCUITS maybe calculated solely using Square metre calculation, eg 4mm RING 100m2. Then electric contractors will plan circuits from calculating room/hall square metre dimensions, for ring circuits to be fitted, when watts maximum/average consumed unknown, etc.

IF YOU HAVE VIDEOS/ANIMATIONS/DIAGRAMS OF ELECTRONS FLOWING, ESPECIALLY IN RING CIRCUITS, I’D BE VERY INTERESTED IN SEEING THOSE.

TO REITTERATE, OBVIOUSLY IEE AND SKT WIRE MANUFACTURERS ARE VAGUE ABOUT SPECIFYING RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES, AS THESE ARE NOT ABSOLUTE CERTAINITIES AS THERE ARE MANY VARIBLES, HENCE RING AMPAGE MAXIMUM VALUES ARE JUST AN APPROXIMATE GUIDE. I think IEE (And similar) and businesses like Prysmian (Skt wire manufacturers) would be evasive about the topic of RING VALUES, even when asked directly about the following:

So you nonsense talkers, give it a rest & stop deliberately "wasting my time", and anybody who can add reliable approx ring ampages to the following, then please speak up:
1.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 15A)
1.5mm RINGED approx 30A to 32A (Not Ringed Ampage = 20A)
2.5mm RINGED approx 30A to 32A (Not Ringed Ampage = 27A)
4.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 36A)
6.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 46A)
10.0mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 63A)
16.00mm RINGED approx ? (Not Ringed Ampage = 85A)


ELEC GAS WATER autocalc 1st tab, scroll down

FUSEBOX MCB autocalc 3rd & 4th tab

Strand ampage is slang, if you want to taken seriously it pays to use the correct terminology:- CURRENT is the quantity (its symbol is I) and it is measured in AMPERES (its symbol is A).

Take a look at BS7671, Table 4D2A, Reference Method 3 (Clipped Direct), Two core Cable (with or without CPC), Single Phase. This is the original source of the values you quote.
Looking at the columns and you will see that current rating of the conductors depend on a number of factors, how the cable will be erected (Reference Method), how many core are combined in the cable, material the conductor is made from, ambient temperature, conductor operating temperature and the cross sectional area of each conductor.
If you look at the whole of appendix 4 you will see a whole heap of parameters that one would have to consider to answer your question.
Therefore what probably appeared to you to be a straight forward simple question, is in fact much more complex and the reason you didn't get the snappy answer you were expecting.
It can all look quite complex and daunting, but don't give up, keep asking questions, the art is ask specific questions rather than all encompassing ones.
Hope this helps.

 

[aptsys]

Amperage!

 

[Engineer54]

srands,

Your talking absolute gibberish, and the stuff your linking too is so misleading, it could almost be considered dangerous!!!

In fact i don't think you have a clue as to what your even asking here You've been told that there are too many parameters to give a straight or simple answer to your question, .....but you seem to know better!!!
How about YOU telling us then???

 

[Chr!s]

OK, how condescending! It is a simple question, that has a simple answer :
A very approximate RING AMPAGE per different skt wire diameter!

If its simple why are you asking? work it out

For example, even if a RING circuit was an even loop, and the only LOAD was at the RING loop end, the flow of electrons (anions - and cations +) will NOT necessarily be drawn by the LOAD from SUPPLY in even amounts from each length of skt wire from the fusebox.
Hence RINGing is less then double: 1.5mm 20A x 1.6 = 32A (As stipulated by IEE 17th Edition), so this is 1.6 times the stated AMPAGE of the skt wire (32A/20A=1.6

).

Thats Mr Kirchoff out of the history books then

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm still trying to work out what a AMPAGE is, I working on the theory that it is a page of a book that can only be read in the mornings

 

[telectrix]

so is a PMPAGE a woman in her 40's ( pre-menopausal age)?

 

[SMB]

I thought Ampage was the village in the 'Archers' on Radio 4.

 

[telectrix]

no that's ambridge, similar to a wheatstones bridge but without the resistances.

 

[Paul.M]

"So you nonsense talkers, give it a rest & stop deliberately "wasting my time", and anybody who can add reliable approx ring ampages to the following, then please speak up:"



If you can tell us the installation method, the ambient temp, the length of the circuit, the earthing arrangement, cable grouping and what type of overload protection you are using then we can answer your question. One of the many questions you have asked is the max amp of whichever cable size you will be using. All the answers are in the tables in the brb but the cable itself can take 1.45 of its rating for up to an hour before it begins to melt.

 

[telectrix]

i thought that was the characteristic of the overload device. 1.45x rated current for 1 hour before tripping.

 

[Paul.M]

This figure came from the cable manufactures so I've been informed, otherwise the cable would burn out before the overload protective device.

 

[telectrix]

i would assume that the safe limit for the cable before it was damaged was 1.45xI,for 1 hour so MCBs are designed to trip before the cable overheated.

 

[malcolmsanford]

This figure came from the cable manufactures so I've been informed, otherwise the cable would burn out before the overload protective device.

i would assume that the safe limit for the cable before it was damaged was 1.45xI,for 1 hour so MCBs are designed to trip before the cable overheated.

You 2 are clearly wasting my time so I'm never, I mean never going to post on this thread again ...............I mean it never ...............I'm going onw












I know your still looking but I really mean it ......................













Stop looking now ....................