Ring vs Radial

[sedgy34]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

its because of that thing we have called HSE and the scam providers use the safety card every year in consultations with the government to justify there exhistences

 

[vjsmarwick]

I like the ring circuit for its current carrying capabilities but from a safety aspect radials have to win !! If a fault comes on a ring after commissioned it can hide and be dangerous because its fed from both ends but radial it's instantly obvious.

 

[hermetic]

its because of that thing we have called HSE and the scam providers use the safety card every year in consultations with the government to justify there exhistences

No it's not, it is because electricians used to be properly trained to do a good job, time will show that the scams actually will drive standards down, and one day ALL electricians will be five week wonders!

 

[hermetic]

I like the ring circuit for its current carrying capabilities but from a safety aspect radials have to win !! If a fault comes on a ring after commissioned it can hide and be dangerous because its fed from both ends but radial it's instantly obvious.

Faults do not "come" onto ring circuits or radial circuits, they are caused! It is up to us as professionals to install properly, and use good equipment and materials. A fault caused by diy tinkering is another matter entirely, and applies to all circuits anyway. I have seen diy that was the equal of the best quality installs, and much work by so called tradesmen that I would have sacked on the spot for! In my experience the fault you are talking about on ring circuits is down not to broken conductors, but conductors not installed into terminals properly and TIGHT! that is down to US, not the circuit format.
phil

 

[sedgy34]

No it's not, it is because electricians used to be properly trained to do a good job, time will show that the scams actually will drive standards down, and one day ALL electricians will be five week wonders!

yes it is :joker:

 

[vjsmarwick]

Hermetic I can see your point but you missed mine completely.
The somewhat simple point I was making is a fault in a radial circuit becomes obvious almost instantly but a fault in a ring circuit does not irrespective of who's fault. It could be someone hanging a picture that puts a screw or nail in to a cable that could just catch the mitral and break it not all electrical faults are done by people working on a circuit.
In my 28 years I have seen many faults but also through time cables become slack in fittings and this is why they are slowly bringing in push fits. I am sure you have gone to fittings where you have taken them off the wall and there is a wire slack it's caused by natural expanding and shrinking of the metal nothing we can do about that but I do understand it does not happen over night.

 

[hermetic]

yes it is :joker:

oooooohhh no it Isn't

• :joker:
  

 

[hermetic]

Hermetic I can see your point but you missed mine completely.
The somewhat simple point I was making is a fault in a radial circuit becomes obvious almost instantly but a fault in a ring circuit does not irrespective of who's fault. It could be someone hanging a picture that puts a screw or nail in to a cable that could just catch the mitral and break it not all electrical faults are done by people working on a circuit.
In my 28 years I have seen many faults but also through time cables become slack in fittings and this is why they are slowly bringing in push fits. I am sure you have gone to fittings where you have taken them off the wall and there is a wire slack it's caused by natural expanding and shrinking of the metal nothing we can do about that but I do understand it does not happen over night.

Fair comment, but I do not agree that terminals loosen that much over time, we were taught to tighten terminal screws till the brass "squeaked", if you did that on most modern fittings the screws would strip or break because the tolerance on the threads is a lot wider than it used to be, metric cables have not helped either (but there's no going back now!) we also had to twist the cables together before inserting into the terminal, which not only reduces the tendency for the screw to force it's way between the cores (solid or stranded) it also has the effect of hardening the copper. I have seen comments on this site saying that twisting cores together in sockets is a pet hate of some sparks, as it makes separation and testing harder! How times have changed. Another fault causer is not leaving cables long enough in the box, there is enough room, even in a shallow box to run the stripped cores to one end, then fold them back and loop them into the socket front. This also was considered good practice. The one thing that can be said in part P's favour is that it does put cables more out of harms way, and makes such positioning compulsory. If I can be boring and again hark back to my college days in the early seventies, we were taught this back then as good practice!. The problem with part P seems to me that although WE know where the safety( danger!!) zones are, there seems to have been little effort made to make householders aware that if there is a socket etc. below, there is probably a cable above, so the risk of nailing is just as great. It should be made clear to all that it is up to us to inform and educate on this.
Phil.

 

[vjsmarwick]

Like you I was always told to twist the wires and to leave plenty in the boxes because you never know when you might be called back to fix a fault in them and if its too short it's our own fault
But I have found that folding the ends over individually is better because the modern screws as you rightly say are poor quality and tend to have square edges that cut and brake the wire more easily than the rounded ended ones did and many times I have seen the poor old earth wire spring out as you are about to fit the faceplate it seems to have reduced with folding the ends.
Bring back the good old days because from what I can see some of our rules are being slackened to come inline with the EU we did have the best safety in the world for electrics why change it.
This does not mean I am not in favour of rcds because I am they are great but for ever changing rules back and forth earthing relaxed why there wasn't a problem before but now so many changes its hard to know which rule is in force when and for how long.
When I was a kid I thought all we had to do was screw a switch on the wall and it worked !! Trouble is some of the architects still think that way and have no idea of the problems their little mark on a drawing can cause !
I am sure we have all looked at drawings and thought what the hell ? We have to work together and show them our work is a skill not something just anyone can do.

 

[hermetic]

"some of our rules are being slackened to come inline with the EU we did have the best safety in the world for electrics why change it."


How right you are!

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...ons/63508-ring-vs-radial-9.html#ixzz288kHkXfm
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[hermetic]

Just to go back to your earlier post, I am not keen on the push-fit terminations, and don't use them, having had to repair dozens of fluorescent light fittings from the eighties and nineties which were all push fit internal connections. I think, as in the lights, over time they will lose their grip, which will cause overheating, thus softening the spring clips which secure the wires, with disastrous results. I think these things are the fire starters of the future.
Phil

 

[ExArmy]

Just to go back to your earlier post, I am not keen on the push-fit terminations, and don't use them, having had to repair dozens of fluorescent light fittings from the eighties and nineties which were all push fit internal connections. I think, as in the lights, over time they will lose their grip, which will cause overheating, thus softening the spring clips which secure the wires, with disastrous results. I think these things are the fire starters of the future.
Phil

good point, how do they know they will not all come loose in 10 years?!

 

[wildgoose]

Radial circuit is my favourite - easier to install and test.

Also fed up with trying to convince customers they have a problem when their RFC'S is open circuit because they think you are pulling a fast one!!

 

[imago]

good point, how do they know they will not all come loose in 10 years?!

Decent quality ones are better than screw terminals in that respect. They will to a degree move to take up slack created by the expansion and contraction causing a thin section, whereas screw terminals require periodic tightening to take it up.

 

[ExArmy]

in theory yes, but they are untested. unless wago invented them back in the 70's, then have been testing them untill now, and now they are sure they will last well then they are selling them?
its the same as when thay claim an LED lamp will last 20 years, how the f*** do they know that? it;s just a guess!