Safe change consumer unit - main fuse seal question

[poul]

hi all
so i have job this is my first consumer units replace job. i have a question about the best, safe way to remove old and fit new. i thint about pull out main fuse but they is sealing, so i think i cant touch ?? if i can i think this is the best waym but if i cant do this how i can pull safety main live cable ?? because is a danger but i have to know, because i thintk i get some other job in future and i looking some good trik to do this Problem is, this main cable is very stiff and difficult to remove.
thanks for any halp

 

[D Skelton]

The DNO will attend to do it for you, so doing it yourself fails (a) and (b) in Regulation 14.

It is illegal.

Well I don't know about you but when I pull the main fuse I always take suitable precautions to prevent injury, such as assessing its condition before I even lay a finger on it, and in my view, it is unreasonable for the slightly exposed live termination on the incoming side to be dead as that would mean cutting the supply to the entire street.

Also, I never work with it exposed as I always take the fuse out and replace the carrier, so thats me conforming to 14(b) too as I'm not working on or near it when it's live.

My opinion = It's not illegal

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So how far away from it are you when you first pull the fuse carrier out, and then replace it without the fuse?

It's not your property, it's not your customer's so they cannot give you permission to work on it, and the people who do own it haven't given you their permission either, so how can it be reasonable for you to fiddle with it?

 

[D Skelton]

It doesn't matter whos property it is, neither does it matter if you have permission or not, pulling the fuse is not illegal. If I was to jack up your car, turn all the wheels 180 degrees and then put it back down again (without damaging it in any way), even if I haven't got your permission to do it, I still have't commited any criminal offence. Yes it's your propety, yes I haven't got permission to tamper with your car and yes, most would consider that to be an odd thing to do, but it's not criminal just to touch something that isn't yours.

Although you may consider it unreasonable for me to fiddle with the fuse, as long as I don't damage it, it's not illegal.

Another slightly off topic example would be if I was to walk into your house through an open door and sit myself down on the sofa, that in itself wouldn't constitute a criminal offence, however, you would have more than enough grounds to sue me for trespass.

The point in which I'm trying to make is that although something may been seen in the eyes of many as wrong, it isn't neccesarily illegal.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It doesn't matter whos property it is, neither does it matter if you have permission or not, pulling the fuse is not illegal.

Yes it is.

Although you may consider it unreasonable for me to fiddle with the fuse, as long as I don't damage it, it's not illegal.

As you do not have permission to do it, it is unreasonable.

The example of jacking up my car is also an example of something which is unreasonable, but there is no law making an unreasonable action like that unlawful.

But there is a law which makes it unreasonable for you to work on or near a live conductor when there is an alternative.

 

[Johnny-G]

Yes it is.

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

 

[D Skelton]

Yes it is.

No it's not.

But there is a law which makes it unreasonable for you to work on or near a live conductor when there is an alternative.

As I've already stated, pulling the fuse wouldn't be considered working on a live conductor. If it was the case that pulling the fuse is working on a live conductor, then you'd have to apply the same reasoning to when you carry out live tests eg. Ze and PFC tests as technically you are working by carrying out necessary tests, and your tester is in contact with a live conductor.

I understand why your viewpoint is the way it is, however your reasoning is flawed.

 

[D Skelton]

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

You are correct. If by default you already have permission by the DNO to cut the seal on the condition that you inform them when you have so that they can come out and re-seal, then that is not illegal no.

However, this only applies to cutting the seal. If you cut the seal without their permission it would be considered criminal damage, whereas if you just pull the fuse without their permission, then you commit no offence.

 

[Johnny-G]

Pulling a fuse which isn't sealed is probably similar to just switching off an isolator or switch fuse in regards of legality, safety aspects apart of course, and no-one ever blinks an eye if you do that.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Oddly, my DNO don't seem to know this if that's the case.
They just ask you to inform them when you've finished cutting their seals and pulling their fuses so they can come and re-seal once the work's finished.
Perhaps it's only illegal if you don't ask first...

Thats a very grown up sensible DNO you have there ....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Pulling a fuse which isn't sealed is probably similar to just switching off an isolator or switch fuse in regards of legality, safety aspects apart of course, and no-one ever blinks an eye if you do that.

In regards of legality it's not the same, because the owner of the isolator or switchfuse gives you permission.

The owner of the cutout does not.

But the main issue is the safety one, and that's which, combined with the fact that it's not reasonable to do it, makes it a contravention of the EAWR.

And I dare say that if they had a mind to a DNO could argue that reinserting the fuse without their permision counts as a contravention of ESQCR 25...

 

[ezzzekiel]

not more donkeys, sites full of the bloody things EAWR EAWR EAWR

 

[Johnny-G]

In regards of legality it's not the same, because the owner of the isolator or switchfuse gives you permission.

The owner of the cutout does not.

But the main issue is the safety one, and that's which, combined with the fact that it's not reasonable to do it, makes it a contravention of the EAWR.

And I dare say that if they had a mind to a DNO could argue that reinserting the fuse without their permision counts as a contravention of ESQCR 25...

It can only be illegal to pull a fuse without permission then as some DNO's have no qualms with you playing with their toys.
If it's not reasonable to do it & a contravention of the EAWR then all DNO's should know this too and make you aware of it, they don't.

 

[D Skelton]

How many times?! It's not illegal to pull the fuse! It's not contravening the EAWR's as long as you forfill certain requirements and it's laughable that you'd even bring ESQCR 25 in to the argument.

 

[Johnny-G]

That's up to them.

But if you turn out to be mistaken in your ability to do it safely the HSE will be breathing down your neck.



Maybe they assume that, as a professional, you are fully aware of the laws which apply to your activities.

Are you saying that it's only illegal to pull a fuse if you don't have the ability to do it safely, regardless of whether the owner of the fuse gives you permission?

And they have no issues with you breaking the 'law'?
Even I know you don't believe that one.


Edit: Mr Skelton has a point, I can't be arsed debating it.

 

[D Skelton]

Correct, it's only illegal if you cannot do it safely, or it is unreasonable to do so. Some may argue that it would be unreasonable to pull the fuse if you only need to work on a lighting circuit which already has a means of isolation. The critical part of that sentence is 'some may argue'.