Scheme providers cash cow vs must have.

[baldsparkies]

Often wonder what many electricians commercial or domestic really think of being a member of one of the scheme providers.
Are they really there to help provide a valuable service to practicing electricians ?
Or are they just a pain in the backside that are always trying to find new ways to relief you of your hard earned cash ?
If it wasn't for domestic notification of works under part P being cheaper under one of the schemes.
I cant see when they have been anything but the latter to be honest.
But opinions on the subject would be interesting.

 

[Andy78]

and monopoly money in brown envelopes passed under the table with a funny handshake.

I had a funny handshake under a table once. Well, I say handshake, but......... ah she was a lovely lass.

 

[malcolmsanford]

With commercial work, I have found that more and more facilities managers are wising up and now have more interest in seeing a JIB card from the operatives actually doing the job as opposed to membership of the company they work for with regards to NIC or the like.
No doubt they have seen examples of young apprentices being let loose on there installations.
And under the umbrella of the scheme provider vs company the apprentice works for.
Who do we have spare ?? Little Joe he's a bright lad give him a van today and send him up.
Oh dear, did I just turn all the IT servers off ?? whoop's.
Trust me !! It happens.

I know that on here we often have a go at the JIB and in some cases it is merited. But what Baldsparkies wrote is really quite comforting.

As long as I have been in the industry the JIB have been around. They have their faults and are not perfect, and I have had a few run ins with them, but they are the only real yardstick to qualifications and standards within our industry. If you haven't got the right Quals then you don't get the relevant grade.

I know guys come on here advocating I've been doing this for 30 yrs and can only get a labourers card, it is a disgrace, well yes and no. Unfortunately today you need to prove competency and a proof of that is qualification, proper ones.

I'd like to see the JIB become more stringent and have more power, there needs to be something in the UK that is pretending to uphold standards, god knows the cash cows aren't.

I was glad that there still isn't this much muted "Domestic Installer" grade added to the grading system. As I said they are not perfect but they are at least still here

 

[baldsparkies]

Regarding JIB, and a common sense approach to qualifications I will say this.
I have a gold approved electrician and Platinum Electrical Site Managers card.
At 62 you will appreciate that when I did my C&G 236 parts A,B and C technicians.
NVQ simply did not exist.
Now my application for a JIB card, which included copies of the above my Apprenticeship Indentures, C&G 2391 inspection and testing and 17th edition.
They provided me with a nice red electrical improvers card !! not what I expected.
It took a phone call to JIB explaining age, experience, and lets face it my qualifications and dates including time served apprenticeship were all there along with a letter to there customer service team.
6 weeks later after my letter went before an assessment board, common sense prevailed and I was granted a gold approved card.
Running small to medium sized contracts got me the Site managers card under industry assessed and 2391 quals.
Probably ties in with Grandfather rights, but for those older guys in my situation my point is the JIB do have a system whereby common sense will kick in provided you take your case far enough up the chain.
Now when it comes to scheme providers and common sense !! forget it.
££££££££££ over rules common sense with these guys every time.
Example, re NICEIC.
Your a qualified electrician, you have the C&G 2391 in inspection and testing, you have public liability insurance, you have all the test equipment required for testing, and the calibration procedures and records in place.
An assesor asseses your ability to conduct a full electrical test.
Then as a domestic installer, you can purchase there Electrical Installation Certificates.
But try purchasing Domestic EICR's (Not a cat in hells chance)
And the reason !! Well it's nothing to do with experience or qualifications,
You simply need to be in there approved scheme, they even push hard for you to do so.
They EVEN say to achieve approved status you can submit domestic only work these days.
But above all ££££££££££s and with a smile welcome, you have joined the club.
Rant over.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Regarding JIB, and a common sense approach to qualifications I will say this.
I have a gold approved electrician and Platinum Electrical Site Managers card.
At 62 you will appreciate that when I did my C&G 236 parts A,B and C technicians.
NVQ simply did not exist.
Now my application for a JIB card, which included copies of the above my Apprenticeship Indentures, C&G 2391 inspection and testing and 17th edition.
They provided me with a nice red electrical improvers card !! not what I expected.
It took a phone call to JIB explaining age, experience, and lets face it my qualifications and dates including time served apprenticeship were all there along with a letter to there customer service team.
6 weeks later after my letter went before an assessment board, common sense prevailed and I was granted a gold approved card.
Running small to medium sized contracts got me the Site managers card under industry assessed and 2391 quals.
Probably ties in with Grandfather rights, but for those older guys in my situation my point is the JIB do have a system whereby common sense will kick in provided you take your case far enough up the chain.
Now when it comes to scheme providers and common sense !! forget it.
££££££££££ over rules common sense with these guys every time.
Example, re NICEIC.
Your a qualified electrician, you have the C&G 2391 in inspection and testing, you have public liability insurance, you have all the test equipment required for testing, and the calibration procedures and records in place.
An assesor asseses your ability to conduct a full electrical test.
Then as a domestic installer, you can purchase there Electrical Installation Certificates.
But try purchasing Domestic EICR's (Not a cat in hells chance)
And the reason !! Well it's nothing to do with experience or qualifications,
You simply need to be in there approved scheme, they even push hard for you to do so.
They EVEN say to achieve approved status you can submit domestic only work these days.
But above all ££££££££££s and with a smile welcome, you have joined the club.
Rant over.

Read that with a tear in the eyes. That was when you became a real sparks :yes:

 

[richy3333]

The industry need a massive shake up. No more short courses. No more multiple registration bodies and no more optional membership. It will never happen though as the industry 'self regulates'. If the government EVER want to see changes in the industry they'll ask the scheme providers for their opinions. Those same scheme providers will never suggest getting rid of themselves! It's like ask the Tories/Labour for proportional representation!

The Scottish governments new rules on rental properties is helping though. Whilst it doesn't take effect until December I undertook an EICR last week and stopped at 93 code 2's and 3's. Customer even said that he appreciated it was a bad move to have the Dangerous Daves and the Roger The Bodger's do his electrical work!

 

[Midwest]

Just popped into B&Q to buy some paint, took a detour through the electrical aisle, full of people buying sockets, switches, cable, connectors etc. They've moved the display of cheap consumer units to the 'top shelf', but only to display something else! Do a lot of small domestic jobs, putting right the bogies the previous owners had done. In an ideal world, if these diy stores stopped selling this stuff, the schemes were organised better (reduced in number for a start), cost of membership reduced & consistent (Stroma £288, Elecsa £440), things might change. But B&Q, Stroma etc, are in it to make a profit for their shareholders, so I can't see anything changing anytime soon.

 

[shanky887614]

Just popped into B&Q to buy some paint, took a detour through the electrical aisle, full of people buying sockets, switches, cable, connectors etc. They've moved the display of cheap consumer units to the 'top shelf', but only to display something else! Do a lot of small domestic jobs, putting right the bogies the previous owners had done. In an ideal world, if these diy stores stopped selling this stuff, the schemes were organised better (reduced in number for a start), cost of membership reduced & consistent (Stroma £288, Elecsa £440), things might change. But B&Q, Stroma etc, are in it to make a profit for their shareholders, so I can't see anything changing anytime soon.

or the foreign system where a double socket would cost £80+ to someone without the qualifications or proof of employment as an electrician

 

[longboat]

or the foreign system where a double socket would cost £80+ to someone without the qualifications or proof of employment as an electrician

Where is this foreign totalitarian state? I don't like the cut of their "JIB".:38:

 

[Farmelectrics]

ive said it before no jib card no work it would improve are trade over night

 

[baldsparkies]

ive said it before no jib card no work it would improve are trade over night

Would certainly be a move in the right direction.
When I started in the game ( and I admit I'm nearing the end of my contribution) but the point is, it was a respected trade.
The electricians you served your time with were exactly that, Electricians.
They too had come up through the ranks through hard work, practical and theoretical training, qualifications that took time to achieve and with substance.
In essence a qualified electrician was just that, qualified and you knew exactly what that meant.
Breaks my heart to see blokes claiming to be qualified after as little as 5 weeks. (but then that ones been done to the death on the forum)
Bottom line is the very people claiming to be cleaning the trade up are responsible for watering it down all in the name of profit.
And Iv'e seen so much politically correct nonsense being added to regulations over the years.
All at the expense of the practicing sparkie and approached with not a single ounce of common sense.
So yes must agree JIB have held the ground from what I have seen.
Part P courses 5 10 12 week courses al wrapped up as nice little ££££££££s
And what the hell is defined scope !!!
You either ARE or your NOT simple as.
Sorry lads, I'm ranting again.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Bald you don't fancy a pint down my local in July when I get home, there are still a few pit lads, even the one that trained me, that are of exactly the same mind set as you and I lol.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Often wonder what many electricians commercial or domestic really think of being a member of one of the scheme providers.
Are they really there to help provide a valuable service to practicing electricians ?
Or are they just a pain in the backside that are always trying to find new ways to relief you of your hard earned cash ?
If it wasn't for domestic notification of works under part P being cheaper under one of the schemes.
I cant see when they have been anything but the latter to be honest.
But opinions on the subject would be interesting.

I can't say I enjoy the yearly visit by the assessor as you cant help getting a little worried! However, he checks all my paperwork:

-calibration cert
-PL insurance
-Complaints procedure
-up to date BS7671
-Up to date Part P approved document
-My own calibration checks (Cal card)

If I dont have the above then he will not pass me until I have it. So at least you know that an electrician who is a scheme member is insured with calibrated equipment and up to date literature. If you are not part of a scheme then it will just be your morals forcing you to have all of the above and that may not be enough to persuade all electricians.

I dont think the rest of the assessment does anything to ensure the electrician is up to standard though as if there is anything wrong with the work that the assessor is viewing then you are asked to change it and send a photo, so what about all the other notifiable works you have completed, they could be full of poor workmanship?

So I agree largely with the common thought that the schemes do not ensure that a 'registered' electrician is competent, and I'm sure there are much better ways of ensuring competency, but it's perhaps better than nothing at all.

 

[baldsparkies]

-calibration cert
-PL insurance
-Complaints procedure
-up to date BS7671
-Up to date Part P approved document
-My own calibration checks (Cal card)

Agree that its better than nothing at all.
But if I spend half an hour with my brother in law, and he purchased or even borrowed most of the gear he would be able to comply with the above list.
By the way !! he's a painter and decorator by trade.
Of course there is an obvious difference in the trades namely.

Tools of his trade are a fraction of what ours cost.
No governing bodies preaching to him from ivory towers.
He's just bought himself a brand new Mercedes e class, with sat nav alloys leather seats ect ect.

Oh yes almost forgot !!
He's just bought himself a brand new Mercedes e class, with sat nav alloys leather seats ect ect.

Sorry did I just say that twice !! must have stuck in my mind for some reason lol.

 

[baldsparkies]

Sorry Guys but something else that needs to be said.
Ok 1st of all at my age I'm probably a senior sparks on the forum well one of em any way.
So here's a view I take when it comes to real world and earning an honest crust.
You walk into a customers property and they take to you, they need a new consumer unit and you notice bonds are not in place along with earthing arrangements being under sized (assume PME in this scenario)
You find pvc wiring throughout and a quick IR test and ring continuity check find things are good to go.
So you inform the customer of the fact he has no bond to his water main.
Gas is close by so you absorb that in your board cost keeping price down because there expression slowly changes.
And of course upgrade that 6mm main earth to suit.
So the huge pain in the backside run to there incoming water supply has just lost you the job.
Think about it !!
You would have provided a new main earth
A bond to gas service
A new dual rcd board with mcb's
Conducted your installation tests
And dare I say at that point left the place in a safer condition than when you arrived.
But no they find that with the cost of the water bond it takes there budget over and you have to walk away.
So you've just left the customer with none of the above work being done.
Surely a common sense approach is to make the customer aware.
Let THEM make the decision of how far they go cost and work wise.
And in an extra box on your Install Cert get them to sign any agreed non compliant limitations, and to say that the implications of not having the advised works done is fully explained to them.
You have just improved the safety of there installation.
Made them understand and agree to work that remains non compliant.
And Completed a job at a budget they could afford.
Part P will see you walk away, with no work done, end of !!
Great !!!!!
Of course the chap and his wife who have lived there for over 20 years have never had a problem, so there logic dictates whats all the fuss about !! I only wanted a new fuse board ???

 

[newtothis]

Then as a domestic installer, you can purchase there Electrical Installation Certificates.
But try purchasing Domestic EICR's (Not a cat in hells chance)
And the reason !!

My theory is they are very suspicious of time served sparks working with a DI ticket.