Scheme providers cash cow vs must have.

[baldsparkies]

Often wonder what many electricians commercial or domestic really think of being a member of one of the scheme providers.
Are they really there to help provide a valuable service to practicing electricians ?
Or are they just a pain in the backside that are always trying to find new ways to relief you of your hard earned cash ?
If it wasn't for domestic notification of works under part P being cheaper under one of the schemes.
I cant see when they have been anything but the latter to be honest.
But opinions on the subject would be interesting.

 

[Dave OCD]

Sorry Guys but something else that needs to be said.
Ok 1st of all at my age I'm probably a senior sparks on the forum well one of em any way.
So here's a view I take when it comes to real world and earning an honest crust.
You walk into a customers property and they take to you, they need a new consumer unit and you notice bonds are not in place along with earthing arrangements being under sized (assume PME in this scenario)
You find pvc wiring throughout and a quick IR test and ring continuity check find things are good to go.
So you inform the customer of the fact he has no bond to his water main.
Gas is close by so you absorb that in your board cost keeping price down because there expression slowly changes.
And of course upgrade that 6mm main earth to suit.
So the huge pain in the backside run to there incoming water supply has just lost you the job.
Think about it !!
You would have provided a new main earth
A bond to gas service
A new dual rcd board with mcb's
Conducted your installation tests
And dare I say at that point left the place in a safer condition than when you arrived.
But no they find that with the cost of the water bond it takes there budget over and you have to walk away.
So you've just left the customer with none of the above work being done.
Surely a common sense approach is to make the customer aware.
Let THEM make the decision of how far they go cost and work wise.
And in an extra box on your Install Cert get them to sign any agreed non compliant limitations, and to say that the implications of not having the advised works done is fully explained to them.
You have just improved the safety of there installation.
Made them understand and agree to work that remains non compliant.
And Completed a job at a budget they could afford.
Part P will see you walk away, with no work done, end of !!
Great !!!!!
Of course the chap and his wife who have lived there for over 20 years have never had a problem, so there logic dictates whats all the fuss about !! I only wanted a new fuse board ???

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Sorry Guys but something else that needs to be said.
Ok 1st of all at my age I'm probably a senior sparks on the forum well one of em any way.
So here's a view I take when it comes to real world and earning an honest crust.
You walk into a customers property and they take to you, they need a new consumer unit and you notice bonds are not in place along with earthing arrangements being under sized (assume PME in this scenario)
You find pvc wiring throughout and a quick IR test and ring continuity check find things are good to go.
So you inform the customer of the fact he has no bond to his water main.
Gas is close by so you absorb that in your board cost keeping price down because there expression slowly changes.
And of course upgrade that 6mm main earth to suit.
So the huge pain in the backside run to there incoming water supply has just lost you the job.
Think about it !!
You would have provided a new main earth
A bond to gas service
A new dual rcd board with mcb's
Conducted your installation tests
And dare I say at that point left the place in a safer condition than when you arrived.
But no they find that with the cost of the water bond it takes there budget over and you have to walk away.
So you've just left the customer with none of the above work being done.
Surely a common sense approach is to make the customer aware.
Let THEM make the decision of how far they go cost and work wise.
And in an extra box on your Install Cert get them to sign any agreed non compliant limitations, and to say that the implications of not having the advised works done is fully explained to them.
You have just improved the safety of there installation.
Made them understand and agree to work that remains non compliant.
And Completed a job at a budget they could afford.
Part P will see you walk away, with no work done, end of !!
Great !!!!!
Of course the chap and his wife who have lived there for over 20 years have never had a problem, so there logic dictates whats all the fuss about !! I only wanted a new fuse board ???

I don't agree. I hand the customer a leaflet explaining about bonding and discuss the safety aspects, if the customer doesn't agree then I will walk. Sometimes it's totally impossible to get within 600mm of the stopcock/before the 1st 'T' without major disruption or unsightly trunking slapped across their newly tiled kitchen etc. In this case I will endeavour to get as close as possible without the disruption but would never totally dismiss the fact that it should be done and don't do it. Getting the customer (who is not electrically skilled and doesn't under stand the importance of bonding) to sign the cert to the effect of them not wanting the bonding installed is a joke IMO. If the customer wants to get dave DIY from the red lion to come and do the job as he isn't bothered about installing bonding then so be it. I'd rather walk than do a non compliant job just because i didn't want to loose out on a board change.

 

[baldsparkies]

My theory is they are very suspicious of time served sparks working with a DI ticket.

Your hitting the proverbial nail on the head there.
But Approved JIB means a lot more than approved contractor, as long as you have your PL insurance set to the right levels, along with risk assessments and method statements as and when required.
Tell the annual assessor that and watch him choke on yer jammy dodgers.

 

[Dave OCD]

Of course main bonding is important and I wouldn't ignore it either but I do understand baldsparkies frustration, only last week I came across a less than 12 month old Hager dual rcd board, inside was rough as rats, neutrals and earths in random order, no main bonding of any description, no certification [according to recent house purchaser] - AND TNS tail disconnected/left dangling and replaced with 10mm earth to a rod ??!! The chap who'd just bought the house [only wanted me to fit a striplight in the garage lol] said previous owner apparently paid £600 for that , the cowboy won't be named here but I'm assured he's NIC ......

 

[baldsparkies]

I don't agree. I hand the customer a leaflet explaining about bonding and discuss the safety aspects, if the customer doesn't agree then I will walk. Sometimes it's totally impossible to get within 600mm of the stopcock/before the 1st 'T' without major disruption or unsightly trunking slapped across their newly tiled kitchen etc. In this case I will endeavour to get as close as possible without the disruption but would never totally dismiss the fact that it should be done and don't do it. Getting the customer (who is not electrically skilled and doesn't under stand the importance of bonding) to sign the cert to the effect of them not wanting the bonding installed is a joke IMO. If the customer wants to get dave DIY from the red lion to come and do the job as he isn't bothered about installing bonding then so be it. I'd rather walk than do a non compliment job just because i didn't want to loose out on a board change.

Totally agree, but if you would rather walk than do a non compliant job !! You've just left the guy with a non compliant job.
Undersized main earthing, no bond to gas, no bond to water, no rcd protection.
But your rear is of course covered, because that's the way the its supposed to be.
Or looking at it another way.
A guy wants the front discs sorted on his car because his brakes are lousy, front tyres need replacing too.
But hang on your rear pads are also shot and need sorting.
Cant afford all that.
Ok I will walk away then because If I just sort your tyres, and front brakes, its non compliant.
But then again why apply any form of logic or even think about it.
Everyone will tell you your doing the right thing Part P and all the governing bodies will back you up.
So of course why give it another thought.
They cant afford everything needed so tough leave everything as it is.
But ask yourself doesn't something seem just a little wrong with this picture.
No no its fine walk away its ok honest ????

 

[Leesparkykent]

Totally agree, but if you would rather walk than do a non compliant job !! You've just left the guy with a non compliant job. but I didn't do the non compliant job
Undersized main earthing, no bond to gas, no bond to water, no rcd protection.
But your rear is of course covered, because that's the way the its supposed to be.
Or looking at it another way.
A guy wants the front discs sorted on his car because his brakes are lousy, front tyres need replacing too.
But hang on your rear pads are also shot and need sorting.
Cant afford all that.
Ok I will walk away then because If I just sort your tyres, and front brakes, its non compliant.
do mechanics work to bs7671?
But then again why apply any form of logic or even think about it.
Everyone will tell you your doing the right thing Part P and all the governing bodies will back you up.
So of course why give it another thought.
They cant afford everything needed so tough leave everything as it is.
wait until they can afford it?
But ask yourself doesn't something seem just a little wrong with this picture.
No no its fine walk away its ok honest ????

......

 

[baldsparkies]

Ok we are playing with words
You have knowingly left the installation, as it stands, in a dangerous condition.
But that's ok, that's what your supposed to do.
No mechanics DONT work to BS7671
That's why the front tyres and front brakes would be DONE and the car would be left in a much SAFER condition as a result.
When the chap can afford it get the rear brakes sorted, at least he stands some chance of living long enough to save the money for it.
Don't get me wrong Lee your doing what any electrician would do, but that doesn't make it right.
It just means your covering yourself which is what we all have to do because that the way the system works.
But like I said somethings not right with the picture ??

 

[Leesparkykent]

Ok we are playing with words
You have knowingly left the installation, as it stands, in a dangerous condition.
But that's ok, that's what your supposed to do.
No mechanics DONT work to BS7671
That's why the front tyres and front brakes would be DONE and the car would be left in a much SAFER condition as a result.
When the chap can afford it get the rear brakes sorted, at least he stands some chance of living long enough to save the money for it.
Don't get me wrong Lee your doing what any electrician would do, but that doesn't make it right.
It just means your covering yourself which is what we all have to do because that the way the system works.
But like I said somethings not right with the picture ??

Yes I do see your point.

 

[baldsparkies]

Bottom line is we are not allowed to make an electrical system safer than it was.
We have to walk away on an all or nothing basis.
And some non accountable will move in, change the board, tell the customer that the genuine sparks was just trying to generate more work for himself.
And the customer will be happy because Roy Rogers as just told him exactly what he wanted to hear.
Customers happy
And Roy's got the money in his pocket.
Well done Sheriff 'P'

 

[Midwest]

Not sure how a JIB card changes anything. I get mine replaced every three years, by only having to take an HS multi choice test, and renewal is based on my apprenticeship history logged with them, which I completed nearly 40 years ago.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Not sure how a JIB card changes anything. I get mine replaced every three years, by only having to take an HS multi choice test, and renewal is based on my apprenticeship history logged with them, which I completed nearly 40 years ago.

Your spot on in a way. You could have done your apprenticeship back in the 70s with me, then left the industry to become an accountant for the next 40 yrs.

You then decide after that 40 yrs to renew your card by taking the Janet and John exam and away you go, with a huge gap in your history. Though they also insist on you having the 17th edition, another Janet and John exam just the next level up

As said the JIB are not perfect. Would they ask where you have been those 40 yrs, debatable, or you can easily lie and say you have worked self employed and didn't need a card, or overseas or maintenance etc etc.

They are not set up and are not given enough back up or resources to police our industry fully. But as I have always advocated they are here, they can be set up easily if there were resources available, and they could be a more powerful advocate for the industry

 

[Tug]

Loving this thread! After twenty years a sparks, I'm starting to get more and more clients asking if I'm NIC etc, no, I'm not. The general public don't seem to understand that none of these bodies are a qualification, they're a private company, there to turn a profit. Sure, they do give Joe public some piece of mind, but they're voluntary organisations, not compulsory or we'd all be members.

As for the board change conundrum; change the board to up the safety level, but advise the client of the bonding defects. It's their home and their decision. By fitting RCD protection you've already reduced their risk level! If you push too hard for further works, you just look like you're trying to squeeze cash out of them! Let the homeowner decide.