UK Scheme/scam certificate woes

[Yellowhammer]

Hi,

Currently having no end of issues with a NAPIT application.

For reference I absolutely have completed work/exams for:
C&G 2330 (which I've now been told is as good as worthless)
NVQ
AM2
Apprenticeship
2391
18th regs
EV charging (can't remember the c&g number)
2396 (awaiting certificate)

I have a valid ECS gold card, which I explicitly checked on the phone, prior to paying any money would be suitable proof of my eligibility for the scheme, I was assured it would be.

I've sent every certificate I have to NAPIT, which is every certificate I've ever actually received.
Upon completion of my apprenticeship I simply got a JIB completion certificate, never did I receive individual AM2 and NVQ certificates (though as far as I'm aware both are prerequisites to completion of the apprenticeship). It is possible the company I did my apprenticeship with simply never forwarded them to me, though they did the others.

I was just wondering if everyone else on a scheme did have all their certs or have experienced anything analogous? I have begun the process of getting searches done and being sent copy's from the relevant bodies, but it's going to be a good £150 and I'm already feeling wounded from paying Napit.

 

[Dan]

Not a spark myself but I think all of them will be fussy the first time round? Renewals being easier to sort. I think anyway.

We ran a poll once and I think it was stroma who came out top.

 

[timhoward]

I did have to send Napit certificates but the list of requirements was a bit shorter back then I'm afraid.

You could try a little ruse. If you phone NIC-EIC and say you have a JIB card, 18th and 2391, is that enough to join? They will probably say yes as the telephonists job is to get sales.

You can then honestly drop a throw away remark into an email to Napit that you have spoken to their main competitor who has confirmed you meet their entry requirements and you are starting to think you've approached the wrong organisation. Then ask what their refund policy is if they don't accept you. You might just find this prompts a more accommodating approach.

I feel frustrated on your behalf, you are more qualified than a lot of people who drive around with a Napit or domestic installer sticker, and people like you should be welcomed into the schemes.

 

[PS Electrics]

Hi,

Currently having no end of issues with a NAPIT application.

For reference I absolutely have completed work/exams for:
C&G 2330 (which I've now been told is as good as worthless)
NVQ
AM2
Apprenticeship
2391
18th regs
EV charging (can't remember the c&g number)
2396 (awaiting certificate)

I have a valid ECS gold card, which I explicitly checked on the phone, prior to paying any money would be suitable proof of my eligibility for the scheme, I was assured it would be.

If you have this (ECS gold card) I cannot see what the problem is it might have been the scheme domestic v approved contractor but you have 2391 so I cannot see the issue.

I've sent every certificate I have to NAPIT, which is every certificate I've ever actually received.

I had a different experience, NICEIC wouldn't accept me and NAPIT would, I wrote to the IET about this because I don't think the schemes have a handle on which qualifications count and which ones don't which doesn't make sense. It is supposed to be governed by the EAS (Electrical Assessment Specification) I never got an answer! I did a full JIB apprenticeship with AM2 don't have a current gold card but that would have been a formality by taking the HSE test. The problem with NICEIC is they wanted the 2391 for the domestic scheme! which I don't have I skipped that has I went on to do an HNC in Building Services (Electrical) working as an Electrical Engineer for a few years. NAPIT didn't want the 2391 for the domestic scheme which I agree with because the AM2 covered both Initial verification and testing to the extent that should cover domestic. I can understand it being a requirement for Approved Contractor status.

Upon completion of my apprenticeship I simply got a JIB completion certificate, never did I receive individual AM2 and NVQ certificates (though as far as I'm aware both are prerequisites to completion of the apprenticeship). It is possible the company I did my apprenticeship with simply never forwarded them to me, though they did the others.

I was just wondering if everyone else on a scheme did have all their certs or have experienced anything analogous? I have begun the process of getting searches done and being sent copy's from the relevant bodies, but it's going to be a good £150 and I'm already feeling wounded from paying Napit.

AM2 you should have a certificate.

I think the whole Part P thing was poorly thought out, It might have seemed a good idea to make the likes of NAPIT and NICEIC gate keepers for it but it doesn't work in practice. For instance first 2 jobs I went out to had board installs/changes with no EIC issued. Hard for anyone to check if work has been certified, NICEIC run www.checkmynotification.com but only for NICEIC or Elecsa certifications! Hard to get hold of Building Control so would take a few days and they might quote GDPR and not tell you (not tried it).

I think Domestic is the real problem, there are loads of handy men, bathroom fitters, kitchen fitters and sparks like myself who want to do occasional electrical work where joining a scheme is just too much cost and trouble so they don't. Currently I just don't touch anything Part P. I just don't see how this makes things safer, as I say first 2 jobs I went to had board changes in the last 6 years that were done without Part P notification. If that is the norm then the amount of work out there not being notified must be a lot.

Both of those board changes the work was appalling, one of them the terminations were so tight you could have played it like a violin. Customer was getting a shock from their washing machine, socket had no sleeving on the cpc and cpc had been joined by twisting together as it was too short to terminate into the socket!!

The other one was on a TT system and they had just reused the old tails (in poor condition) hung off a 50 year old RCD that looked like it should have been in a museum. Don't know if any of that was tested or not (customer did not have the EIC) ended up walking away from the job, main fuse was pulled and no one knew why!!

 

[David1977m]

Hi,

Currently having no end of issues with a NAPIT application.

For reference I absolutely have completed work/exams for:
C&G 2330 (which I've now been told is as good as worthless)
NVQ
AM2
Apprenticeship
2391
18th regs
EV charging (can't remember the c&g number)
2396 (awaiting certificate)

I have a valid ECS gold card, which I explicitly checked on the phone, prior to paying any money would be suitable proof of my eligibility for the scheme, I was assured it would be.

I've sent every certificate I have to NAPIT, which is every certificate I've ever actually received.
Upon completion of my apprenticeship I simply got a JIB completion certificate, never did I receive individual AM2 and NVQ certificates (though as far as I'm aware both are prerequisites to completion of the apprenticeship). It is possible the company I did my apprenticeship with simply never forwarded them to me, though they did the others.

I was just wondering if everyone else on a scheme did have all their certs or have experienced anything analogous? I have begun the process of getting searches done and being sent copy's from the relevant bodies, but it's going to be a good £150 and I'm already feeling wounded from paying Napit.

I think this might be your employers fault. As well as the certificate with The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (IfATE) you should have got individual unit certificates and a diploma document from the exam board i.e. C&G. As for the AM2S, NET would have sent a ‘certificate of assessment of occupational competency’. If you didn’t get these they might of been sent to your employers address, however I would speak to the employer saying they are yours and if they don’t want to hand them over you will have to get I touch with IfATE as they should of fully funded the course and might have to repay the Government over £10k in college fees. The government fund is to get you qualified not for employers to keep certificates.

 

[Yellowhammer]

I did have to send Napit certificates but the list of requirements was a bit shorter back then I'm afraid.

You could try a little ruse. If you phone NIC-EIC and say you have a JIB card, 18th and 2391, is that enough to join? They will probably say yes as the telephonists job is to get sales.

You can then honestly drop a throw away remark into an email to Napit that you have spoken to their main competitor who has confirmed you meet their entry requirements and you are starting to think you've approached the wrong organisation. Then ask what their refund policy is if they don't accept you. You might just find this prompts a more accommodating approach.

I feel frustrated on your behalf, you are more qualified than a lot of people who drive around with a Napit or domestic installer sticker, and people like you should be welcomed into the schemes.

Thanks Tim, as it happens I've already replied something to this effect, stating that I felt completely misled by the NAPIT sales person and am questioning my choice of CPS now. I do know, unfortunately, that their refunds policy is not to refund the first £160 payment. I'm still happy to go forward with them honestly, it's just an annoyance. I don't doubt NIC would be just as difficult, or more so.

If you have this (ECS gold card) I cannot see what the problem is it might have been the scheme domestic v approved contractor but you have 2391 so I cannot see the issue.



I had a different experience, NICEIC wouldn't accept me and NAPIT would, I wrote to the IET about this because I don't think the schemes have a handle on which qualifications count and which ones don't which doesn't make sense. It is supposed to be governed by the EAS (Electrical Assessment Specification) I never got an answer! I did a full JIB apprenticeship with AM2 don't have a current gold card but that would have been a formality by taking the HSE test. The problem with NICEIC is they wanted the 2391 for the domestic scheme! which I don't have I skipped that has I went on to do an HNC in Building Services (Electrical) working as an Electrical Engineer for a few years. NAPIT didn't want the 2391 for the domestic scheme which I agree with because the AM2 covered both Initial verification and testing to the extent that should cover domestic. I can understand it being a requirement for Approved Contractor status.

AM2 you should have a certificate.

I think the whole Part P thing was poorly thought out, It might have seemed a good idea to make the likes of NAPIT and NICEIC gate keepers for it but it doesn't work in practice. For instance first 2 jobs I went out to had board installs/changes with no EIC issued. Hard for anyone to check if work has been certified, NICEIC run www.checkmynotification.com but only for NICEIC or Elecsa certifications! Hard to get hold of Building Control so would take a few days and they might quote GDPR and not tell you (not tried it).

I think Domestic is the real problem, there are loads of handy men, bathroom fitters, kitchen fitters and sparks like myself who want to do occasional electrical work where joining a scheme is just too much cost and trouble so they don't. Currently I just don't touch anything Part P. I just don't see how this makes things safer, as I say first 2 jobs I went to had board changes in the last 6 years that were done without Part P notification. If that is the norm then the amount of work out there not being notified must be a lot.

Both of those board changes the work was appalling, one of them the terminations were so tight you could have played it like a violin. Customer was getting a shock from their washing machine, socket had no sleeving on the cpc and cpc had been joined by twisting together as it was too short to terminate into the socket!!

The other one was on a TT system and they had just reused the old tails (in poor condition) hung off a 50 year old RCD that looked like it should have been in a museum. Don't know if any of that was tested or not (customer did not have the EIC) ended up walking away from the job, main fuse was pulled and no one knew why!!

If I'm completely honest I went with NAPIT based on the fact it appeared slightly easier to get in for the first year. Having not been doing notifiable work I want to show some work in my own place. In future I'd quite like to be NIC, purely based on the fact they seem to be the quoted CPS whenever you speak to anyone; councils, building contractors, private building control etc. Once I am a member of a scheme and am doing some notifiable works I feel it will be easier to then keep rolling with whoever with a catalogue of work to show an inspector.

The quality of work you see while out and about generally makes you wonder. I have thus far found it fairly stressful trying to ensure everything is compliant with the handful of work I have planned, every install seems to throw something up a little strange. Either that or I find myself thinking of a different way of doing something after I've finished, which may be "better". I feel this isn't something shared by all sparks though!

I think this might be your employers fault. As well as the certificate with The Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (IfATE) you should have got individual unit certificates and a diploma document from the exam board i.e. C&G. As for the AM2S, NET would have sent a ‘certificate of assessment of occupational competency’. If you didn’t get these they might of been sent to your employers address, however I would speak to the employer saying they are yours and if they don’t want to hand them over you will have to get I touch with IfATE as they should of fully funded the course and might have to repay the Government over £10k in college fees. The government fund is to get you qualified not for employers to keep certificates.

I am inclined to agree, it was 10 years or so ago now and I promptly left at the end of my apprenticeship, which I don't think was much appreciated. May explain why they weren't too worried about forwarding things on.
I've now paid for a search, and subsequently an additional issue charge to have my NVQ proved and a replacement certificate sent. I have also spoken with NET and am just waiting for them to confirm they've found my record before paying them £60 for my AM2 cert!

It's a good job I still have a full time job in parallel as the cost of set up is certainly steep!

 

[Yellowhammer]

They've now taken to ignoring me! So I really may go NICEIC and take a hit on the first payment to NAPIT. Guy in the wholesalers yesterday also told me they've heard from multiple people the NAPIT inspector here is not lovely. He used different terminology, but similar implication! I was under the impression getting CPS was thought of as too easy, with a number of cowboys happily signed up, but so far it's proving incredibly difficult, for me at least!

 

[David1977m]

They've now taken to ignoring me! So I really may go NICEIC and take a hit on the first payment to NAPIT. Guy in the wholesalers yesterday also told me they've heard from multiple people the NAPIT inspector here is not lovely. He used different terminology, but similar implication! I was under the impression getting CPS was thought of as too easy, with a number of cowboys happily signed up, but so far it's proving incredibly difficult, for me at least!

They might be able to help as NICEIC say this "where an ECS card is or has been held, ECS can verify if an individual's qualifications are sufficient when qualification certificates are inaccessible or unavailable". However you still need to be trying to get a copy of the certificates as you never know when the system changes as you might have to provide the certificates in the future.

 

[Yellowhammer]

They might be able to help as NICEIC say this "where an ECS card is or has been held, ECS can verify if an individual's qualifications are sufficient when qualification certificates are inaccessible or unavailable". However you still need to be trying to get a copy of the certificates as you never know when the system changes as you might have to provide the certificates in the future.

Totally agree, NVQ certificate and AM2 certificate both paid for and hopefully on their way shortly!

Sent a fairly blunt email today saying I wouldn't be making the 2nd of the 3 payments, and would be persuing other CPS due to their lack of communication or help.. Miraculously I almost instantly got an email saying they were happy to accept and someone would be in touch to arrange my assessment soon..

 

[David1977m]

Totally agree, NVQ certificate and AM2 certificate both paid for and hopefully on their way shortly!

Sent a fairly blunt email today saying I wouldn't be making the 2nd of the 3 payments, and would be persuing other CPS due to their lack of communication or help.. Miraculously I almost instantly got an email saying they were happy to accept and someone would be in touch to arrange my assessment soon..

It’s sad that you had to say no more money to them for them to pull their fingers out.