separation of main power and safety circuit. I've been told off!

[44ALLAN]

Is this a house of sin with chains and shackles and handcuffs?

People climbing/jumping and electric shocks everywhere?

Absolute disgrace.......................pm me the address matemg_smile:

 

[Darkwood]

Deleted

 

[Inteificio]

As for a response to your comment a 'short circuit' by definition in the BS 7671 has negligible impedance, what i belief what you were referring to is a high impedance fault.

I may be off on my terminology.
What I meant was a negligible impedance fault far down the circuit.
Although the fault itself is of negligible impedance, the Zs at the fault point would be enough to miss the magnetic trip on the D40, but still cause the wires to burn before the overload hits. A short circuit in the board will trip the D40 fine. I'm talking about when you add in a 20m run of 1.5.

I have not looked at the feed to the board. It will sound a bit strange, but some of you guys will understand. I know it is bad, beyond bad. It is so bad I would not be comfortable working on it.
I am dealing with the risks I can remove. There is nothing I can do with the main power feeds, so I am intentionally not looking. If there is a fault upstream we have plenty of fire escapes. This room I can stop a chance of electrocution, so I am.
Fight the battles you can win.

 

[Tiny Spark]

"You say this room is "high risk" why is it high risk? Is it high because stupid people do stupid things like climbing on isolators or its high risk because of the environment or just the plain installation?"

All of the above.

The main issue is using isolators as steps to reach high up things. You would be amazed how often this happens.

In that case you need to get your management to sort something out, Like I said if something happens the HSE will be all over your company and as Darkwood said if its something to do with the electrics you may come under fire also.

 

[Tiny Spark]

There is nothing I can do with the main power feeds, so I am intentionally not looking. If there is a fault upstream we have plenty of fire escapes. This room I can stop a chance of electrocution, so I am.
Fight the battles you can win.

You may not be able to but someone will.

Nobody wins a battle if someone dies, If I ever come across something that I consider to be that dangerous I have no regrets what so ever about killing the power and making it safe.
I really dont care who I upset in the process, Ive done it before and I shall again if needed.
Sadly ignorance may be bliss but its no excuse.

 

[Darkwood]

Deleted

 

[Darkwood]

I am dealing with the risks I can remove. There is nothing I can do with the main power feeds, so I am intentionally not looking. If there is a fault upstream we have plenty of fire escapes. This room I can stop a chance of electrocution, so I am.
Fight the battles you can win.

Ive had H&S call me for a meeting twice to establish my risk assessment and safety systems were sufficient after 2 accidents both occasions serious injuries occurred ... after showing them the safety system and how it had been overridden deliberately on one machine they were satisfied with that on the other a guy had opened a panel to remove a blockage he subsequently lost his hand to which H& S asked why some kind of limit safety switch may have stopped this... i pointed out the guy had climbed over a safety gate onto the machine removed 10 x M6 bolts with a tool before losing his hand .... i said the machine has been risk assessed as the panel requires tools to remove it it dosn't need a limit unless say it has serviceable parts by the user like changing pulley belts etc then yes it would have one fitted but a panel that should only be removed by an trained engineer who knows the dangers well ...... the H&S stopped me there said thankyou for my co-operation and they will not need to speak to me again about this incident.

I fear if you find them calling you for a meeting after an accident you may be struggling to exonerate yourself from at the very least sharing responsibility .... im not deliberately trying to pick holes here im kinda hoping you see the importance of covering your arse!

 

[Darkwood]

Sorry to say im pulling out of this thread .... unless the OP tells me otherwise and after reviewing his past threads it seems only 2 yrs ago he was training to be an Electrician and now hes creating threads where he's actively working with machinery and controls...

Id would advise several yrs of onsite experience with an electrical engineer before working on machinery yourself as well as quite a good few yrs in industrial installation work ... its clear from your previous threads over the last few years you are working with equipment and in fields clearly out of your depth... thus the advice i give may be mis-interpreted due to your lack of knowledge in this field .... pls correct me if im wrong but i struggle to see how a trainee a few yrs ago asking if he needs an AM2 is actively working on machinery and control systems.... when hes many yrs to go to get a good experience level as an electrician, therefore because of those reasons 'Im Out'!

 

[Darkwood]

:lipsrsealed2:........

 

[Inteificio]

"Id would advise several yrs of onsite experience with an electrical engineer before working on machinery yourself as well as quite a good few yrs in industrial installation work"

few years working with an electrical engineer on equipment, a few years working on industrial install.
Yep, not dozens of years. Electrical skill seems to have far more with how hard you try and learn, not much to do with how long you have been doing it.
Experience is highly valuable, but to treat someone as incompetent as they have only been doing this specifically for a few years is just ridiculous.
I was fault finding 3 phase systems from my first day of work.

I know there are gaps in my knowledge, that's why I come here to speak to the guys with more experience.

I do know my limits. I stated above I am not touching the main factory distribution. Management has been informed. We had a visiting electrician (who happens to be a mate of one of the senior management) I walked him around site showing the things that need to be done and management need to be aware of. That's all I can do in that regard.

This is just wiring up a control panel ffs, it's not that hard.

I needed help on some regs, and came to ask. I didn't ask to be judged on limited info and insulted.

 

[Darkwood]

This is just wiring up a control panel ffs, it's not that hard.

I needed help on some regs, and came to ask. I didn't ask to be judged on limited info and insulted.

To start with it was a concern not an accusation i did say 'correct me if im wrong'...
Your responses to various questions have raised this concern, checking the level of questioning from your recent history is also an indication you lack experience.. yes we all have been there and this isn't the issue its the fact you are practicing in a field out of the scope of the BS7671 where you clearly admit you don't possess or know the relevant BS EN standards you should be addressing to work on machinery and control panels.

I gather by the comment i highlighted then you are fully aware of how to do risk assessment for machine safety, that the existing control system you are altering or working on complies with the relevant standards, under fault or failure conditions the control system is fail safe if required and due to the nature of your question and the fact that electric shock is high risk i would assume a high safety category is required.....

With all respect i can show a first year apprentice how to wire a contactor with a start/stop button to run a motor.... what takes many years and ideally an HNC in engineering is learning all the limitation and parameters within which you must comply.... many types of machinery have dedicated BS EN standards like industrial sewing machines, wood working machines, crane systems etc.... its a mine field and when things go ---- up the first persons the H&S will be hounding are the company bosses who will not want to be hit with a 20K fine so they will all point the finger in your direction... simply saying it was already like that will not wash nor will your addressing the issues as and when ... if the machine is not safe to use it has to be locked down until all the issues are addressed.

If the outsourced Electrician is compliant with all the above ive mentioned and is monitoring your progress and issuing the cert afterwards then fair play no problem their as all the responsibility lays on his shoulders and he should be the one you ask the questions rather than on here as he is aware of the set-up... if he's just an Electrician with little or basic knowledge of machinery and control systems then neither of you will have a leg to stand on...

Im voicing concerns not insulting you that is the difference, you come on here for advice and that is my advice that i fear you are working in an area you clearly give the impression you shouldn't be... when you've purchased a copy of the BS EN 60204 and read and understood it then ill be happy to advice and help you where needed... but its akin to a DIYer not knowing any BS7671 regulations and saying wiring a socket is easy..... yes in principle it is but without knowing the regulations the end result could be functional but dangerous.

 

[Inteificio]

BS EN 60204 order req completed. Am so glad I know what regs I am supposed to follow!


Am curious to know what additional risk it protects against. Do you have any good examples of something that 60204 specifies that 7671 does not? It might make it easier if the query the purchase req.

thanks,

P

 

[Darkwood]

BS 7671 covers the supply to the panel everything thereafter controls etc falls under the 60204

As we are not aware what this machine, controls or system is doing i can't comment if their are specific BS-EN standards for your machine ...

Hope you didn't take my posts and comment as a dig at you they were aimed at trying to make you aware the risks and consequences you face going in blind but i would still recommend furthering your education or get experience under a Electrical engineer ....the later on its own can be riskier as you may pick up bad habits of others without realising.

P.S. How much did the 60204 cost you?

 

[Inteificio]

I have just put in the purchase req, so not sure on pricing.

Do you know anywhere that has it at a good price?

 

[Darkwood]

Forgot to mention you need to specify the section you want or it will cost an arm and a leg ....

BS EN60204-1 to cover the basics you may need others dependent on the machines you work on.

This is about 120 pages long and covers the basics you may need other sections dependent on the machinery you are on.... expect this not to be cheap - 'and you thought the BS 7671 was expensive and all its guides' .... welcome to the industrial world.