Should EICR's be restricted to those qualified

[Octopus]

To be fair it very much depends on the agreed scope of the inspection. That would make it hard to offer a one size fits all timescale to periodic inspection and testing.

I can't edit my earlier post but I was meaning an untested site where the customer needs a 50% or above test....

 

[Justmovedin]

I'm going to be having one done on my house soon, I'm just wandering does every qualified electrician has the right/knowledge and issue certification etc or is it only certain field of electrician can do this. I live I a 3 bed 2 reception room kitchen, each room has 2 plugs but the kitchen has about 10. How will I know the time taken is being done properly or cowboy?

 

[Justmovedin]

I'm going to be having one done on my house soon, I'm just wandering does every qualified electrician has the right/knowledge and issue certification etc or is it only certain field of electrician can do this. I live I a 3 bed 2 reception room kitchen, each room has 2 plugs but the kitchen has about 10. How will I know the time taken is being done properly or cowboy?

 

[Pete999]

They are electricians out there who don't install to the regulations, be it through a lack of knowledge or lack of skill so to me it's no different to how the trade is at the moment, whether it be testing or installation work.
Companies can self certify and legally carry out an eicr through joining a scheme by assessment.

So the schemes make it all right do they? no matter how much the individual knows, come on Ian you know that the assessment specimen is done by a proper Electrician who knows his stuff so the likes of NICEIC give the company CarteBlanche to to do as many EICRs as they can, the schemes are oblivious of what goes on until the next assessment.

 

[Richard Burns]

I'm going to be having one done on my house soon, I'm just wandering does every qualified electrician has the right/knowledge and issue certification etc or is it only certain field of electrician can do this. I live I a 3 bed 2 reception room kitchen, each room has 2 plugs but the kitchen has about 10. How will I know the time taken is being done properly or cowboy?

Despite the intent of this thread most established electricians should be able to do a competent EICR, though there are a lot of rubbish ones about, unfortunately.
The person inspecting and testing should be going to every point in the house and inspecting each switch, socket, light fitting, fused connection unit etc. they should also be internally inspecting a certain percentage of accessories, not just the easy to reach ones, they also need to test every circuit several times to get the required data, they may well spend a lot of time in the consumer unit with the power off and then go wandering around the house testing at various points. They will then send you an ECIR report which can be 7 pages long and it should detail any problems in plain English and also provide test and inspection results. At least half a day I would say and for you a full day based on your current description of the anomalies in your house.

 

[Ian1981]

So the schemes make it all right do they? no matter how much the individual knows, come on Ian you know that the assessment specimen is done by a proper Electrician who knows his stuff so the likes of NICEIC give the company CarteBlanche to to do as many EICRs as they can, the schemes are oblivious of what goes on until the next assessment.

No I do agree pete.
I was kinda saying that I don't know how you can regulate it as when your a member of a scheme, if your enrolment covers you then your allowed to carry out a eicr no questions asked.
By your scheme anyway.

 

[westward10]

This was NAPITs original intention, National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers, that didn't last long.

 

[Dave OCD]

Well I believe that a conscientious and experienced electrician without specific test/inspection qualifications would in most cases produce a more thorough EICR than someone with the specific qualifications but without other relevant experience.

 

[Des 56]

This was NAPITs original intention, National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers, that didn't last long.

Yes they had the best of intentions when first formed
The last time I had opportunity to look at their requirements,to be able to be supplied with Napit Eicr paperwork,the electrician member had to hold the 2391 and have some sort of indemnity insurance,not sure what they permit these days
They probably follow the Niceic s QS system where one has the nod of approval and the other 4,000 doing the eicrs just need his signature

 

[chris day]

The QS system is flawed, so someone can sit in an office and say yes he has ticked all the boxes and made up some convincing numbers

 

[Pete999]

The QS system is flawed, so someone can sit in an office and say yes he has ticked all the boxes and made up some convincing numbers

From speaking to a friend who was a QS it would seem, that in many cases, the company will become registered to say for example NICEIC Promote probably one of the better Sparks to QS status, and from then on as long as the CPS inspections go OK pay the poor QS lip service, and as long as they are making money, pay scant attention to Quality control. But I'm biased

 

[David M]

The only way to govern is to make it mandatory. Unless criminal charges can be brought to those who don't follow the rules then it remains a "free for all". The scams are out to make money (priority), regulate (secondary). Stiffen the law and they may lose membership, though easier to regulate, a possible big loss in revenue.
It always boils down to money unless there is a public outcry which cannot be ignored the recent fire in the tower block in London is a prime example of supposedly "regulated" standards.

 

[Pete999]

The only way to govern is to make it mandatory. Unless criminal charges can be brought to those who don't follow the rules then it remains a "free for all". The scams are out to make money (priority), regulate (secondary). Stiffen the law and they may lose membership, though easier to regulate, a possible big loss in revenue.
It always boils down to money unless there is a public outcry which cannot be ignored the recent fire in the tower block in London is a prime example of supposedly "regulated" standards.

Correctamundo David

 

[JK-Electrical]

My own view is that Electrical Installation Condition Reports should be undertaken only by suitably qualified AND suitably experienced electricians, with the emphasis strongly on experience. The original poster, Gavin, and Dave OCD both make this point strongly, and I agree wholeheartedly with what Dave wrote:

I believe that a conscientious and experienced electrician without specific test/inspection qualifications would in most cases produce a more thorough EICR than someone with the specific qualifications but without other relevant experience.

Almost all of the EICRs that I carry-out are on behalf of letting agents and landlords. But the competition to secure EICR work from letting agents and landlords up here in Glasgow is extremely competitive, cutthroat even. I'm having to compete with boys fresh out of college with just an NVQ. No additional qualifications in inspection and testing. Not even a current BS 7671 certificate. As tempted as I am to expose these imposters by posting links to the profiles that they have on My Builder, I will resist .... at least for now. I cannot see for the life of me how it is possible for a nineteen or twenty year-old boy to have accumulated sufficient experience to be able to competently carry-out Electrical Installation Condition Reports. Indeed, this lack of experience is reflected in the prices some of them are charging.

When you are living at home with your parents and don't have a mortgage/rent to pay, council tax to pay, or energy bills to worry about, or don't have overheads like the legitimate electrician does such as the fees we pay for the courses in inspection and testing, for our BS 7671 certificates every five years, not to mention the membership fees we pay to the trade bodies who are supposed to represent our interests, then I suppose you can quite easily do an EICR for the pocket-money price of £40 or £50. I wonder how many of these guys would come unstuck if ever HRMC were to take a closer look at some of the people who are touting for business on sites such as My Builder and Rated People. Quite a few, I would imagine.

Up here in Scotland, there is guidance for landlords to consider before they hire an electrician to carry-out an EICR although in my experience, few, if any, ever do. Indeed, I would say that most landlords and letting agents probably don't even know that the guidance exists. According to this guidance, the Scottish Government have decreed that membership of SELECT or NICEIC can be taken as sure-fire proof that the member electrician is competent and qualified to undertake EICRs. If the electrician is not a member of either body, then the landlords/letting agent must ensure that the electrician can satisfy all of the requirements as listed in Annex A of the guidance:

- Is a member of a professional body
- Has public liability insurance of at least £2 million
- Has employers' liability insurance of at least £2 million, unless the business has no employees
- Has professional indemnity insurance of at least £250,000
- Has completed appropriate assessed training on current version of BS7671 within the past 5 years
- Can provide copies of wholesaler bills made out to entity trading, or a company registration number, or a Unique Tax Reference
- Can provide copies of trade qualification or equivalent
- Can provide a copy of a written health and safety policy statement for the business
- Has completed Electrotechnical Certification Scheme (ECS) Health & Safety Assessment within the past 3 years
- Has been granted, or is eligible to be graded as an approved electrician level at least

Just the final requirement alone should prevent nineteen or twenty year-olds from carrying-out EICRs as anyone seeking to become an SJIB approved electrician must have had two years' experience as a graded electrician immediately prior to making their application. I was almost twenty-three before I became eligible to apply for upgrading to approved electrician status back in 1982. So unless it is now possible to become an SJIB electrician at the age of seventeen or eighteen, it is therefore outright impossible for anyone in their late teens or early twenties to possibly carry-out EICRs in compliance with the Scottish Government's guidance. So why bother even publishing such guidance if there is no legislation in place to enforce it?

Furthermore, to be granted approved electrician status, the applicant must have satisfactorily completed a registered apprenticeship in electrical installation. I know of at least half-a-dozen 'electricians' in their early twenties currently trading on My Builder who did not serve an apprenticeship. On the contrary, they came straight out of college and signed-up on My Builder as 'electricians' whereupon they proceed to further distort an already distorted domestic market by offering to carry-out EICRs for £40 0r £50 even though they are neither qualified or competent to do so.

What a f***ing farcical state of affairs. It really does make my blood boil. It angers me that those who of us who did a four-year apprenticeship, paid hundreds of pounds to obtain an additional qualification in inspection and testing and paid hundreds more again to gain a current BS 7671 qualification are losing business to young wannabes who took the shortcut route and therefore have only the absolute bare minimum trade qualification, who didn't serve an apprenticeship, and who simply don't have the necessary level of experience to competently carry-out EICRs.

I'm praying that SELECT's campaign to have the Scottish Government to recognise electricians as professional people and to make it a criminal offence to work as an electrician while not qualified will be successful. My understanding is that legislation will be introduced sometime in 2018. If my information is correct, then a register to be jointly maintained by SELECT and NICEIC will be compiled of all electricians in Scotland who are suitably qualified, suitably experienced and adequately insured to undertake EICRs. Those who are not will risk a hefty fine and/or imprisonment should they be caught carrying-out electrical work that they are not qualified to undertake.

Such a move is long overdue, that's for sure. And when it does happen, there will be an awful lot of young wannabes wishing that they had done an official apprenticeship or taken that job with McDonalds. Make no mistake, it isn't cowboy builders who are the problem vis a vis EICRs. No, the problem lies exclusively within our own trade. That is certainly my experience. It is also evidently the experience of most others who have posted on this thread.

 

[Phillip]

There are Lot's of the 5 day so called electricians out there doing this. The practical experience is Utube. I think every real qualified electrician knows this.