Sign off A.N.Other builders work

[1Justin]

I've been asked to do a couple of jobs at a potential customer. Will be taking a look tomorrow.

One job is signing off others work for an extension. (Her builder has bu.. off). I know about the imminent changes to allow this (for work done to part P in the first place). Have been watching the NICEIC/ELECSA circulars saying this is imminent, but no detail and no forms of inspection available yet.

Without seeing it yet, no idea whether the Builder was Part P, got it spot on, or was totally incompetent.

I am considering treating it as a full Periodic, ie quoting her for Periodic Inspection via Condition Report Inspection Schedule & EICR first, and if that works out OK, I could (for minimal additional charge), provide her EIC for Building Control, with the latter signed ONLY under "For Inspection and Testing", with "Comments" section explaining why the installation is unsigned and referencing the previous CRIS/EICR.

If obvious work was necessary after CRIS/EICR, then that would be quoted separately before she got her (half-signed) EIC.

Kind of belt and braces, but since it's been left that way, I don't see an obvious alternative which keeps me covered.

Is this a sensible way forward?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

There was something in place - LABC will normally accept an EICR!

The problem is now the changes have "legitimised" the dodgy builder and the cowboy sparky who will sign off an EIC without even getting out his MFT!

eh?....

 

[thewetspark]

I've GOT to come in on this!

You all NEED to go to the IET website and download a set of 17th edition amendment 1, forms. It's 400Kb in pdf format. AND FREE to use, just need paper and a printer to make them and they are perfectly legal and haven't been 'doctored' by any scheme operators to fit nicely on a page with room for their logo!

Periodic is no longer valid for Part P work, has to be an EICR. It's to replace the periodic AND to use to find the 'condition' of any installation apart from actually where the burried parts of the circuit run. (Periodics can still be used for commercial & industrial work)
But IF you do it thoroughly then it WILL be safe and with a RCD on EVERT circuit that has burried cables then anyone inadvertantly damaging them will be protected.

OFTEN building work is taken on as a complete package INCLUDING being the customers agent for the B.C. so the customer never get to see anything to do with B.C.
Yes often the lowest price is accepted so builders get in cheap subbies and often go bust.

Do the EICR but charge for it as it'll take a day at least on a small property if you've done it right. There are several pages of specific question on the regulations so you will have lied if you tick the box and it doesn't comply.
BUT you can't do it unless your scheme operator has specifically approved you to do them as it does take experience and knowledge to check installations you never put in, (what a periodic was and I bet very few of them have EVER been done properly). Also you should have Proffessional Indemnity Insurance because you ARE giving a proffessional opinion on someone else's work so if after, someone gets hurt or killed then YOUR EICR will be investigated and it could be a very long time in goal for causing death or injury!

Ever since I've been Part P registered I've asked all concerned (had a long running discorse with a guy in the IEE about why they didn't have individual circuit test forms as well as the summary!!) WHERE do you record all the test results that you take IF you test by the regulations???
I have my own forms I use and they don't half help when you go into properties done by cowboys, all your results are neatly tabulated so you can easily see where bridges, bad connection, the CPC's have been used as the third core for two way or the neutral for a heating thermostat upgrade.
Not one person, experienced qualified sparks included, have EVER been able to tell me WHERE they record all the readings they SHOULD take! You'd need to be Mr Memory if you can remember which reading was the worst and at what point for a circuit that will need testing at twenty points or more, (usually a lot more as you have to TEST for circuit continuity and that INCLUDES the CPC and most of those end at a light switch so that has to come off and the CPC recovered as it's usually been cut off out of the way!

ANYONE can sign the form if qualified, Part P or formally qualified electricians but LOADS of both will just sign and hope.
Me, as a Part P'er, would like the continuation of needing fuller qualifications as Part P goes along as that way everyone in the trade will eventually be formally qualified, but the biggest jump will be when they stop anyone but qualified people actually buying the materials like in a lot of other civilised countries. (Gas should be the same).

So you lot, download and read the forms and the guidance notes, all very self explanitory.

I've had a couple of female trainees over the years, great, pick it up quick and like to do it right. (Please don't come back with the usual sexual inuendo's to this.)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I've GOT to come in on this!

You all NEED to go to the IET website and download a set of 17th edition amendment 1, forms. It's 400Kb in pdf format. AND FREE to use, just need paper and a printer to make them and they are perfectly legal and haven't been 'doctored' by any scheme operators to fit nicely on a page with room for their logo!

Periodic is no longer valid for Part P work, has to be an EICR. It's to replace the periodic AND to use to find the 'condition' of any installation apart from actually where the burried parts of the circuit run. (Periodics can still be used for commercial & industrial work)
But IF you do it thoroughly then it WILL be safe and with a RCD on EVERT circuit that has burried cables then anyone inadvertantly damaging them will be protected.

OFTEN building work is taken on as a complete package INCLUDING being the customers agent for the B.C. so the customer never get to see anything to do with B.C.
Yes often the lowest price is accepted so builders get in cheap subbies and often go bust.

Do the EICR but charge for it as it'll take a day at least on a small property if you've done it right. There are several pages of specific question on the regulations so you will have lied if you tick the box and it doesn't comply.
BUT you can't do it unless your scheme operator has specifically approved you to do them as it does take experience and knowledge to check installations you never put in, (what a periodic was and I bet very few of them have EVER been done properly). Also you should have Proffessional Indemnity Insurance because you ARE giving a proffessional opinion on someone else's work so if after, someone gets hurt or killed then YOUR EICR will be investigated and it could be a very long time in goal for causing death or injury!

Ever since I've been Part P registered I've asked all concerned (had a long running discorse with a guy in the IEE about why they didn't have individual circuit test forms as well as the summary!!) WHERE do you record all the test results that you take IF you test by the regulations???
I have my own forms I use and they don't half help when you go into properties done by cowboys, all your results are neatly tabulated so you can easily see where bridges, bad connection, the CPC's have been used as the third core for two way or the neutral for a heating thermostat upgrade.
Not one person, experienced qualified sparks included, have EVER been able to tell me WHERE they record all the readings they SHOULD take! You'd need to be Mr Memory if you can remember which reading was the worst and at what point for a circuit that will need testing at twenty points or more, (usually a lot more as you have to TEST for circuit continuity and that INCLUDES the CPC and most of those end at a light switch so that has to come off and the CPC recovered as it's usually been cut off out of the way!

ANYONE can sign the form if qualified, Part P or formally qualified electricians but LOADS of both will just sign and hope.
Me, as a Part P'er, would like the continuation of needing fuller qualifications as Part P goes along as that way everyone in the trade will eventually be formally qualified, but the biggest jump will be when they stop anyone but qualified people actually buying the materials like in a lot of other civilised countries. (Gas should be the same).

So you lot, download and read the forms and the guidance notes, all very self explanitory.

I've had a couple of female trainees over the years, great, pick it up quick and like to do it right. (Please don't come back with the usual sexual inuendo's to this.)

of course its free to use....theres no need to get sexual...

 

[Robson689]

I've GOT to come in on this!

You all NEED to go to the IET website and download a set of 17th edition amendment 1, forms. It's 400Kb in pdf format. AND FREE to use, just need paper and a printer to make them and they are perfectly legal and haven't been 'doctored' by any scheme operators to fit nicely on a page with room for their logo!

Periodic is no longer valid for Part P work, has to be an EICR. It's to replace the periodic AND to use to find the 'condition' of any installation apart from actually where the burried parts of the circuit run. (Periodics can still be used for commercial & industrial work)
But IF you do it thoroughly then it WILL be safe and with a RCD on EVERT circuit that has burried cables then anyone inadvertantly damaging them will be protected.

OFTEN building work is taken on as a complete package INCLUDING being the customers agent for the B.C. so the customer never get to see anything to do with B.C.
Yes often the lowest price is accepted so builders get in cheap subbies and often go bust.

Do the EICR but charge for it as it'll take a day at least on a small property if you've done it right. There are several pages of specific question on the regulations so you will have lied if you tick the box and it doesn't comply.
BUT you can't do it unless your scheme operator has specifically approved you to do them as it does take experience and knowledge to check installations you never put in, (what a periodic was and I bet very few of them have EVER been done properly). Also you should have Proffessional Indemnity Insurance because you ARE giving a proffessional opinion on someone else's work so if after, someone gets hurt or killed then YOUR EICR will be investigated and it could be a very long time in goal for causing death or injury!

Ever since I've been Part P registered I've asked all concerned (had a long running discorse with a guy in the IEE about why they didn't have individual circuit test forms as well as the summary!!) WHERE do you record all the test results that you take IF you test by the regulations???
I have my own forms I use and they don't half help when you go into properties done by cowboys, all your results are neatly tabulated so you can easily see where bridges, bad connection, the CPC's have been used as the third core for two way or the neutral for a heating thermostat upgrade.
Not one person, experienced qualified sparks included, have EVER been able to tell me WHERE they record all the readings they SHOULD take! You'd need to be Mr Memory if you can remember which reading was the worst and at what point for a circuit that will need testing at twenty points or more, (usually a lot more as you have to TEST for circuit continuity and that INCLUDES the CPC and most of those end at a light switch so that has to come off and the CPC recovered as it's usually been cut off out of the way!

ANYONE can sign the form if qualified, Part P or formally qualified electricians but LOADS of both will just sign and hope.
Me, as a Part P'er, would like the continuation of needing fuller qualifications as Part P goes along as that way everyone in the trade will eventually be formally qualified, but the biggest jump will be when they stop anyone but qualified people actually buying the materials like in a lot of other civilised countries. (Gas should be the same).

So you lot, download and read the forms and the guidance notes, all very self explanitory.

I've had a couple of female trainees over the years, great, pick it up quick and like to do it right. (Please don't come back with the usual sexual inuendo's to this.)

You can also get editable versions of the BS7671 forms on the forum

http://www.electriciansforums.net/i...ations/29798-new-eicr-editable-pdf-certs.html

Useful if you want to fill it out on your iPad or something and print the cert out later on (no need for software either, just the pdf reader thing)

 

[Robert Turnbull]

I've GOT to come in on this!

You all NEED to go to the IET website and download a set of 17th edition amendment 1, forms. It's 400Kb in pdf format. AND FREE to use, just need paper and a printer to make them and they are perfectly legal and haven't been 'doctored' by any scheme operators to fit nicely on a page with room for their logo!

Periodic is no longer valid for Part P work, has to be an EICR. It's to replace the periodic AND to use to find the 'condition' of any installation apart from actually where the burried parts of the circuit run. (Periodics can still be used for commercial & industrial work)
But IF you do it thoroughly then it WILL be safe and with a RCD on EVERT circuit that has burried cables then anyone inadvertantly damaging them will be protected.

OFTEN building work is taken on as a complete package INCLUDING being the customers agent for the B.C. so the customer never get to see anything to do with B.C.
Yes often the lowest price is accepted so builders get in cheap subbies and often go bust.

Do the EICR but charge for it as it'll take a day at least on a small property if you've done it right. There are several pages of specific question on the regulations so you will have lied if you tick the box and it doesn't comply.
BUT you can't do it unless your scheme operator has specifically approved you to do them as it does take experience and knowledge to check installations you never put in, (what a periodic was and I bet very few of them have EVER been done properly). Also you should have Proffessional Indemnity Insurance because you ARE giving a proffessional opinion on someone else's work so if after, someone gets hurt or killed then YOUR EICR will be investigated and it could be a very long time in goal for causing death or injury!

Ever since I've been Part P registered I've asked all concerned (had a long running discorse with a guy in the IEE about why they didn't have individual circuit test forms as well as the summary!!) WHERE do you record all the test results that you take IF you test by the regulations???
I have my own forms I use and they don't half help when you go into properties done by cowboys, all your results are neatly tabulated so you can easily see where bridges, bad connection, the CPC's have been used as the third core for two way or the neutral for a heating thermostat upgrade.
Not one person, experienced qualified sparks included, have EVER been able to tell me WHERE they record all the readings they SHOULD take! You'd need to be Mr Memory if you can remember which reading was the worst and at what point for a circuit that will need testing at twenty points or more, (usually a lot more as you have to TEST for circuit continuity and that INCLUDES the CPC and most of those end at a light switch so that has to come off and the CPC recovered as it's usually been cut off out of the way!

ANYONE can sign the form if qualified, Part P or formally qualified electricians but LOADS of both will just sign and hope.
Me, as a Part P'er, would like the continuation of needing fuller qualifications as Part P goes along as that way everyone in the trade will eventually be formally qualified, but the biggest jump will be when they stop anyone but qualified people actually buying the materials like in a lot of other civilised countries. (Gas should be the same).

So you lot, download and read the forms and the guidance notes, all very self explanitory.

I've had a couple of female trainees over the years, great, pick it up quick and like to do it right. (Please don't come back with the usual sexual inuendo's to this.)

Have you confused yourself?

 

[markc123]

I've GOT to come in on this!

You all NEED to go to the IET website and download a set of 17th edition amendment 1, forms. It's 400Kb in pdf format. AND FREE to use, just need paper and a printer to make them and they are perfectly legal and haven't been 'doctored' by any scheme operators to fit nicely on a page with room for their logo!

Periodic is no longer valid for Part P work, has to be an EICR. It's to replace the periodic AND to use to find the 'condition' of any installation apart from actually where the burried parts of the circuit run. (Periodics can still be used for commercial & industrial work)
But IF you do it thoroughly then it WILL be safe and with a RCD on EVERT circuit that has burried cables then anyone inadvertantly damaging them will be protected.

OFTEN building work is taken on as a complete package INCLUDING being the customers agent for the B.C. so the customer never get to see anything to do with B.C.
Yes often the lowest price is accepted so builders get in cheap subbies and often go bust.

Do the EICR but charge for it as it'll take a day at least on a small property if you've done it right. There are several pages of specific question on the regulations so you will have lied if you tick the box and it doesn't comply.
BUT you can't do it unless your scheme operator has specifically approved you to do them as it does take experience and knowledge to check installations you never put in, (what a periodic was and I bet very few of them have EVER been done properly). Also you should have Proffessional Indemnity Insurance because you ARE giving a proffessional opinion on someone else's work so if after, someone gets hurt or killed then YOUR EICR will be investigated and it could be a very long time in goal for causing death or injury!

Ever since I've been Part P registered I've asked all concerned (had a long running discorse with a guy in the IEE about why they didn't have individual circuit test forms as well as the summary!!) WHERE do you record all the test results that you take IF you test by the regulations???
I have my own forms I use and they don't half help when you go into properties done by cowboys, all your results are neatly tabulated so you can easily see where bridges, bad connection, the CPC's have been used as the third core for two way or the neutral for a heating thermostat upgrade.
Not one person, experienced qualified sparks included, have EVER been able to tell me WHERE they record all the readings they SHOULD take! You'd need to be Mr Memory if you can remember which reading was the worst and at what point for a circuit that will need testing at twenty points or more, (usually a lot more as you have to TEST for circuit continuity and that INCLUDES the CPC and most of those end at a light switch so that has to come off and the CPC recovered as it's usually been cut off out of the way!

ANYONE can sign the form if qualified, Part P or formally qualified electricians but LOADS of both will just sign and hope.
Me, as a Part P'er, would like the continuation of needing fuller qualifications as Part P goes along as that way everyone in the trade will eventually be formally qualified, but the biggest jump will be when they stop anyone but qualified people actually buying the materials like in a lot of other civilised countries. (Gas should be the same).

So you lot, download and read the forms and the guidance notes, all very self explanitory.

I've had a couple of female trainees over the years, great, pick it up quick and like to do it right. (Please don't come back with the usual sexual inuendo's to this.)

Right - if i need to be corrected then fair enough, i'll accept it.

But, im pretty sure you can't use Periodic Reports anymore - they were replaced by the EICR and as far as im concerned that is for all installations.

 

[thewetspark]

The way I read it on the IET site is that the only legally required forms are those required under Part P for Dwellings, BSen 7671 is the required standard under that legislation, like all the Building Reg's you can comply in many ways but the easiest and undisputable is via the approved documents and Part P uses 7671 as that approved document.
When the EICR came out it said on their site that it was to replace the Periodic as that was unsuitable for Part P (Dwellings) because of the need for uncertified work to be regularised, could be from a business going bust or a customer/contractor dispute (BUT not every Part P qualified competant person could fill them out, they have to have specific authority from their scheme operator to do it as you are testing third party work so need the skil and experience over and above that needed to pass your own work.
Periodics were still usable for commercial and industrial where a periodic inspection was due though the more thoriugh EICR could be used instead. I don't do any commercial or industrial so am not up on the legal side of it but I gather that there is no direct LEGAL requirement (like Part P of the building Reg's for dwellings as that only covers residential buildings) for qualified electricians to do the work or inspect/test it. I believe the need for qualifications comes from having to meet HSE, Electricity at Work and of course the businesses insurance companies requirements.

I thought the thread was started off about signing off other peoples work in relation to Part P.

 

[Kate]

Neither NAPIT or NICEIC allow me to use periodic reports for commercial/industrial. Has to be EICR.
NAPIT have an EICR form for 100a + to be used for commercial/industrial
NICEIC have different EICR forms for either commercial/industrial or domestic.