So what’s the script with these AFFDs?

[MFS Electrical]

been doing some poking about on the 18th and came across something about AFFDs is this gonna be something else that we are going to have to sell to our customers when all they want to do is add a couple of sockets to an existing RFC? Like the inevitable I want 4 new sockets, no problem but as the latest version of the regs requires that all socket outlets are RCD protected, your going to need to add RCDs/RCBOs or do a consumer unit change oh and now it’s gonna cost you more because it’ll need AFFDs too. At which point most people reply f**k sake mate only wanted 4 sockets put in not a complete upgrade then of course dodgy Dave comes in at your back and fits the 4 sockets cause he doesn’t give 2 flying F***s and it works for ever and ever and ever. I’m all for upgrading to higher safety standards etc but customers think your taking the p***s trying to rope them into work they don’t need. Where does the madness end??!!

 

[MFS Electrical]

Oh and btw I quite like these Eaton AFFDs

what do yous all think? And I wonder in what circumstances it would tell you to call your electrician? Maybe only when it’s faulty as the orange light seems to tell you there is a fault

 

[Octopus]

I think the affd's have come about due to inappropriate representation by the manufacturers.

Can't see them being installed ......

 

[Spoon]

We were discussing this in another thread.

The below is pinched from @Midwest post #66.

Beama have produced a guide for AFDD's (Nov 2017), for those not seen it.

It says 'It is recommended that special measures be taken to protect against the effects of arc faults in final circuits:
• in premises with sleeping accommodation;
• in locations with risks of fire due to the nature of processed or
stored materials, i.e. BE2 locations, (e.g. barns, woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials);
• in locations with combustible constructional materials,
.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings);
• in fire propagating structures, i.e. CB2 locations;
• in locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods.

And 'In order to implement the technical intent of the HD, Bs 7671 18th Edition will include requirements covering the use of AFDDs however the actual requirements and final wording will not be available until publication of the 18th Edition in July 2018.

Now it all depends on your interpretation of 'sleeping accommodation' if it is for domestic.
The Oxford dictionary states accommodation is "A room, group of rooms, or building in which someone may live or stay"
Sounds like domestic to me.

As you say, if that is true for domestic then people are doing to loose lots of work if one is required for adding/moving a couple of sockets.

 

[Octopus]

^^ loose work .... who to .... ?

 

[ChipFanDave]

W.T.F is a digital arc, I'm very concerned all my arcs are old fashioned analogue. May have to to upgrade my wave AC to digital electrics !

 

[MFS Electrical]

^^ loose work .... who to .... ?

Either to some nugget who won’t be concerned about applying the regs or the customer may decide they don’t actually need the work because of the extras involved either way you’ve lost the work

 

[MFS Electrical]

W.T.F is a digital arc, I'm very concerned all my arcs are old fashioned analogue. May have to to upgrade my wave AC to digital electrics !

It’s all zeros and ones arc on arc off

 

[MFS Electrical]

We were discussing this in another thread.

The below is pinched from @Midwest post #66.

Beama have produced a guide for AFDD's (Nov 2017), for those not seen it.

It says 'It is recommended that special measures be taken to protect against the effects of arc faults in final circuits:
• in premises with sleeping accommodation;
• in locations with risks of fire due to the nature of processed or
stored materials, i.e. BE2 locations, (e.g. barns, woodworking shops, stores of combustible materials);
• in locations with combustible constructional materials,
.e. CA2 locations (e.g. wooden buildings);
• in fire propagating structures, i.e. CB2 locations;
• in locations with endangering of irreplaceable goods.

And 'In order to implement the technical intent of the HD, Bs 7671 18th Edition will include requirements covering the use of AFDDs however the actual requirements and final wording will not be available until publication of the 18th Edition in July 2018.

Now it all depends on your interpretation of 'sleeping accommodation' if it is for domestic.
The Oxford dictionary states accommodation is "A room, group of rooms, or building in which someone may live or stay"
Sounds like domestic to me.

As you say, if that is true for domestic then people are doing to loose lots of work if one is required for adding/moving a couple of sockets.

I did have a quick scout about but couldn’t see any other threads mentioning it could you post a link or give me the name of it so I could have a gander?

 

[Octopus]

Either to some nugget who won’t be concerned about applying the regs or the customer may decide they don’t actually need the work because of the extras involved either way you’ve lost the work

Or just ignore the ill thought out ideas of AFFD’s and carry on ......

If the IET want to implement regs like this, they are simply undermine what they stand for .......

 

[Marvo]

These devices have been around a few years because they were a requirement in the American legislation....or maybe Canadian.. can't remember now. They're known as AFI's which in arc fault interruptors or CAFI's or some other series of letters ending in 'AFI'.

The theory is great but in practice all examples of AFI devices I've come across have been either skittish as all hell and nuisance trip or undersensitive and don't trip at all. That said it was a couple of years ago I had a run-in with them on a spec we got for a panel we were building so maybe they've got better since then. (January in 2014 to be specific)

 

[MFS Electrical]

Or just ignore the ill thought out ideas of AFFD’s and carry on ......

If the IET want to implement regs like this, they are simply undermine what they stand for .......

I’m not quite sure I get your thinking on this? Why do you think it’s an I’ll conceived idea and then if you do ignore it and something goes ti*s up how would you justify not installing it against the guidance of the regs in court etc I’m not trying to criticise I’m just wondering about your thinking on this.

 

[Marvo]

It's gonna get interesting when you've actually got to go hunting for an arc fault that's causing tripping....every week there's at least a couple of threads about someone struggling to find an RCD tripping fault... we're probably going to need a full forum section dedicated to AFI faults.

 

[MFS Electrical]

It's gonna get interesting when you've actually got to go hunting for an arc fault that's causing tripping....every week there's at least a couple of threads about someone struggling to find an RCD tripping fault... we're probably going to need a full forum section dedicated to AFI faults.

Or a sh*tload more expensive instrumentation just to find the faults ourselves I can’t even begin to fathom how you would find it on say a socket circuit with a fault caused by mice under the floor Or something that damages the cable like pulling in without using something that could pinpoint it or roughly set out an area or strip back all the cabling on the circuit to find it or rip out and rewire it sure would make for some interesting days

 

[Marvo]

I really don't understand why the UK regs are getting a hard-on for these things, even the good ones don't work properly on ring circuits of any kind.