Solar instal in Blackpool - lots of questions

[SRE]

If you have a look at op it looks like he can only get 2kwp on his flat roof & he could always increase the size of his cylinder. I'd suggest it's entirely possible on a 2kwp system

 

[john999uk]

Thanks very much for all the posts.
I kept my OP simple as it is a little more complicated in reality.
The building is actually 5 holiday apartments and our residential apartment. So we work from home.
The immersun looks interesting although we always need hot water in the tank as it feeds all the sinks (electric showers). I can't seem to find out if it can control an alternative source of water heating like gas boiler? Maybe thinking of using relay to control hot water tank thermostat to make boiler kick in?
I don't think we can have cavity wall insulation as we have a basement and the cavity goes all the way down.
We do have compact fluorescent lamps in most fittings and TRV's on all rads.
We do also have a normal pitched roof in addition the the flat one but it is 3 stories up and not that big as building is L shape and it's the small bit of the L that faces South. So could be worth getting a split system?

Looks like it will be best to get an expert to come and have a look. Difficulty is going to be finding an expert who is not only interested in his commission

Thanks for all your help it's great info to help me learn.

 

[danesol]

If you don't know what price PV has currently dropped to then please don't post on public forums saying Solar PV is only worth it for the most suitable houses, companies are trying to make a living on this forum and making general statements won't help . The finances still stack up for low electric consumption houses due to the lower costs of Solar PV now but I agree its not for everyone but still one of the best investments currently out there. The FIT rate has been reduced but its not feeble at all.

So having an opinion based on fact, personal experience and intelligence is not allowed is it not ???

You want to lie or keep quiet do you ??

Well I'm not and if the OP could get say a 3Kw system on his roof for say £ 5K - it wouldnt be worth it IMO compared with other more favourable schemes for his particular property. This isnt to say that PV wouldnt be a good investment for others, but based on what he's said so far on this thread - my reply is just !

 

[Gavin A]

If you have a look at op it looks like he can only get 2kwp on his flat roof & he could always increase the size of his cylinder. I'd suggest it's entirely possible on a 2kwp system

ah, fair play then

 

[danesol]

Looks like it will be best to get an expert to come and have a look. Difficulty is going to be finding an expert who is not only interested in his commission

Thanks for all your help it's great info to help me learn.

Very good idea and its a real shame, the industry bodies cant supply someone like this independant of installers etc to advise accordingly !

 

[Ian-LS]

Get a decent installer (not a salesman). There are plenty of decent installers around the country who will give you sound advice. Do some research before you get them around so you are clued up and able to spot someone who is talking rubbish. Most of the installers on here know what they are talking about as this is what they do 5-6 days a week (some 7 days a week).

What you want is someone who treats each customer and property differently and looks for solution that meets your needs. If they want your custom they wil take the time to explain everything and give expert advice. There is no better sales tactic than knowing what you are talking about.

 

[danesol]

If you don't know what price PV has currently dropped to then please don't post on public forums saying Solar PV is only worth it for the most suitable houses, companies are trying to make a living on this forum and making general statements won't help . The finances still stack up for low electric consumption houses due to the lower costs of Solar PV now but I agree its not for everyone but still one of the best investments currently out there. The FIT rate has been reduced but its not feeble at all.

Now for the supportive maths why you are wrong for this particular example !

Assume an investment of £ 5,000 in comparison in an ISA paying each year 2.25% and a PV system giving an annual return of 2,500 kwhrs against an household useage of 6,000kwhrs @ 12p/kwh no standing charge with full useage of all electric generated with monies paid for 50% export.

The Invester stays at the property 20yrs and useage and generation remains static.

PV calculation;
Assuming no electrical bill saving - system will take ~12.5yrs to pay back alone

Balance of investment at 12.5yrs - NIL !!!!!!

Assume an additional electrical saving on utility bill of £ 200 p/a, add this to fit tarrif revenue, system then will take ~8.3yrs to pay back

Owner of property still has NIL balance and hasnt gained any profit whatsoever at this stage.

Assuming again 2% RPI on tarrif - after 20yrs - system will be in profit by ~ £ 8,800, assuming nothing has broken or had to be replaced ( panel or inverter wise ).

ISA Investment calculation;

£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,018.63 interest profit after 8.3yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 8.3yrs = £ ~6,018.63

£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,591.07 interest profit after 12.5yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 12.5yrs = £ ~ 6,591.07


AT 20yr position !
£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,802.55 interest profit after 20yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 20yrs = £ ~ 7,802.55

 

[Ian-LS]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about the merits of investing in Solar PV on here as I know Solar PV is still one of the best investments out there (if i didnt think this I wouldnt be designing Pv systems for a living), its not for everyone granted. Just a small question though, what would happen if you put all of the Feed in Tariff & export payments back into an ISA at 2.25% interest, nothing stopping the customer doing this.

 

[SRE]

I have two accountants that I'm currently finalising quotes for - they musn't be able to do their sums

Nothing wrong with an opinion it's welcomed but things have moved on a lot in pv in the last few months and in most cases it's still a great investment. It puzzles me how people don't think twice about spending 15 - 20k on a car that has depreciated the minute it's been driven out of the showroom but they quibble about spending 6-8k on something that will save money for 40 years. Nowt as queer as folk

 

[danesol]

I have two accountants that I'm currently finalising quotes for - they musn't be able to do their sums

Nothing wrong with an opinion it's welcomed but things have moved on a lot in pv in the last few months and in most cases it's still a great investment. It puzzles me how people don't think twice about spending 15 - 20k on a car that has depreciated the minute it's been driven out of the showroom but they quibble about spending 6-8k on something that will save money for 40 years. Nowt as queer as folk

Have you ever seen pictures of my cheap electric car :laugh3:

 

[Gavin A]

Now for the supportive maths why you are wrong for this particular example !

Assume an investment of £ 5,000 in comparison in an ISA paying each year 2.25% and a PV system giving an annual return of 2,500 kwhrs against an household useage of 6,000kwhrs @ 12p/kwh no standing charge with full useage of all electric generated with monies paid for 50% export.

The Invester stays at the property 20yrs and useage and generation remains static.

PV calculation;
Assuming no electrical bill saving - system will take ~12.5yrs to pay back alone

Balance of investment at 12.5yrs - NIL !!!!!!

Assume an additional electrical saving on utility bill of £ 200 p/a, add this to fit tarrif revenue, system then will take ~8.3yrs to pay back

Owner of property still has NIL balance and hasnt gained any profit whatsoever at this stage.

Assuming again 2% RPI on tarrif - after 20yrs - system will be in profit by ~ £ 8,800, assuming nothing has broken or had to be replaced ( panel or inverter wise ).

ISA Investment calculation;

£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,018.63 interest profit after 8.3yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 8.3yrs = £ ~6,018.63

£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,591.07 interest profit after 12.5yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 12.5yrs = £ ~ 6,591.07


AT 20yr position !
£ 5,000 @ 2.25% will yield £ 1,802.55 interest profit after 20yrs
Invester still retains the initial investment of £ 5,000
Balance @ 20yrs = £ ~ 7,802.55

as ever, it all depends what assumptions you're making when doing your figures. We clearly outline the assumptions we've made and why in all our quotes, give the customers a 20 year performance estimate showing the expected reductions in output, increases in energy costs and FIT etc so they can make their own minds up.

I can't work out what you're basing those figures on, and I've been doing those calculations daily for 3 years. I suspect though that it boils down to what your assumptions are for energy price rises and RPI inflation increases, and based on my in depth knowledge of the UK energy sector, I'm confident that the basis for our estimates is sound, and if anything an underestimate of the energy price rise increases we're facing in the next couple of years and beyond.

But then even on our figures it looks as if you've got a bigger cash balance after 20 years than with the ISA, as well as having a system that will continue to generate significant energy bill savings for several decades into the future, plus probably export payments (albeit maybe with a replacement inverter being needed at some point).

Essentially it is a gamble on energy prices & RPI, but I don't know anyone even vaguely clued up who doesn't think these are likely to rise rapidly for the foreseeable future...

You are right in some respects though in that it's not a sensible investment in all circumstances, the energy savings on site are much more significant than they were, and it's questionable how sensible the investment is if you're not planning to be in the house too much longer (though a decent system should increase the chances of selling the house at a decent price relatively quickly without needing to drop the price etc), and it's not something to invest in if there's any chance you're likely to need to try to draw down on your savings in the next few years.

 

[Earthstore]

It is difficult to accurately calculate 20yr projections for this type of investment, as written before it depends on what assumptions you use, for the RPI you can only really take an average of the past years, but energy prices are probably going to rise more than what the public may believe (this is just my personal assumption on all the research that I have done).

So, instead of trying to compare this with an ISA, which is the only other tax free investment (I believe) that is available to the general public, why not look at this as a completely stand alone investment, IE borrow the money at 4%, get a 10% ROI that then leaves you 6% to pay off the capital, these are just round figures, for an example, and I am sure they can be tweaked a little, not forgetting that the PV system is RPI and energy price linked, and you loan should be at a fixed rate so if this works in year 1 then after time your ROI per year will rise therefore reducing the term which you loan could be repaid.

I hope this helps.

 

[lancselec]

look on the epc register for your postcode see other properties in the street that have an EPC carried out and make an assessment of their EPC's against yours as a quick guide.

 

[john999uk]

look on the epc register for your postcode see other properties in the street that have an EPC carried out and make an assessment of their EPC's against yours as a quick guide.

WOW that is an eye opener!!!! If the surrounding properties are anything to go by (same construction, age etc.) we will have no problems getting a 'D'!
It is interesting to see the different 'assumptions' that have been made and the improvements suggested.
It's a great site thanks very much.

 

[lancselec]

did i mention we are based in preston and can give you a quote for PV